Loss of respect for Amherst

<p>I think that many, probably most, of the kids who were rejected are as brilliant, interesting, and wonderful as my classmates (and me! ;)) and I really hope they do not take it personally. I know rejection stings, but I think there is a lot of honor in taking it with grace. I will try to be more sensitive in the future, it is something that I know I need to work on, but I don't think that any of the students whom Amherst did not have room for will suffer because they ended up attending a different school. I really doubt most of them will even think about Amherst come September!</p>

<p>My family does not have very much money, and I wasn't aware of the financial aid policies at schools like Amherst. I assumed, until very close to application time, that I would continue working hard to fund myself at our state university, and I never saw this as a bad option. Do I feel fortunate now to attend Amherst? Absolutely, very much so, and I am so grateful for the opportunity. My sibling attended a university that is well off the radar for the vast majority of CCers, though, and is now thriving at an Ivy League graduate school. My mother didn't attend college at all. I am thankful to be going to college, and I think I have enough humility that I would be equally thankful to be going to a less prestigious school (I hope I would). I just wish that students could put it in perspective. You won't be defined by which schools can't offer you admission, but I think the attitudes of a lot of people here may impede them.</p>

<p>And thanks for your kind words, I shouldn't say this either, but I was very heartbroken when I had to turn down Williams' offer for admission.</p>

<p>I appreciate unregistered's gracious comments. I also would like to point out that ten years out from college, it really does not matter where you went to college even though in April of senior year it is paramount. Ultimately, you will be evaluated by your abilities and character in the professional world, and less by your degree(s). Amherst is a great place to prepare for the next step and for life but the real hard lessons in life and education can be accomplished at many fine inistutions, including some that are off the radar of many CCers as unregistered has said. </p>

<p>There also are many fine schools that also try to provide what Amherst does-mentorship, nurturing, community, intellectual excitement-to a different group of students. I was very impressed with Loren Pope's book "Colleges that change lives." He introduced me to the notion of "value-added education" in which students grow intellectually and socially during their college years. The schools in his book offer average to above average students a similar transformative experience as the better known LACs which accept students with better "stats". There are some schools where capable students are left on their own and given total independence (and virtually no guidance), and they learn to succeed no matter what. It teaches survival of the fittest but unfortunately not everyone survives. There are other places where one humbly accepts one's limitations and learns to learn from others in supportive, cooperative, and fun ways. That is the invaluable lesson I learned from Amherst and try to practice in my own professional life.</p>

<p>As a parent and alum, I have seen three of my own kids "heart-broken" by not gaining admission to Amherst. On the other hand, each of them has gone on to other fine institutions, and are enjoying college. I know it can be disappointing at first but I would advise students who were not accepted at their top choices to reinvest themselves and their dreams in whatever alternative school they decide to attend. Every school offers unique opportunities, great profs, and lifelong friends.</p>

<p>unregistered, I rescind what I said before. I thought it sounded like you were calling all of the entitled white/asian. You clarified though, so it's all good.</p>

<p>pmyen, I was surprised at your story.
How can you not hate your alma mater that hasn't accepted even one of your three kids?
Reading yours and unregistered's posts, I begin to respect Amherst's people and eduaction.</p>

<p>ccfaithful,
My affection for Amherst started as a freshman and is based upon my experiences there. It is not contingent in any way upon my children's acceptances or rejections. I don't want to invade their privacies but to put things in perspective for some of the students who also were rejected, they had excellent stats, too. Two of my children also were national AP scholars, each taking 11 APs in high school and earning 4s and 5s on all of them. I was disappointed naturally although I realize that they may not have been in the top 10% of their competitive magnet school, and the students accepted from their h.s. arguably were somewhat stronger. I am not sure how important a tip legacy is unless one is an influential alum, which I am not. I also know that while the admissions rate for legacies is higher than the general application pool, they comprise a very strong pool. Legacies have their applications read by the Dean of Admission, so they had an opportunity to present their case, and at some point, I have to put my confidence in the system and also accept the fact that there are too many excellent applicants for too few spots. As a parent, I have tried to help them get over their initial disappointment, and focus on the opportunities they have. It will not be the only time in their lives they will not get a dream position, job, etc.</p>

<p>pmyen: Well said. And a gift of dealing with disappointment without bitterness is a wonderful legacy to give to your children. They are indeed very lucky.</p>

<p>and all the other replies.</p>

<p>So Chrone, the two AA students who were selected over you weren't "qualified" in your view??You assume that SAT scores are the definitive variable? I'm sure that you've read the volumes of literature on admissions committees "creating a class". I suggest you read Pmyen #43's post. It explains in plan English the complexity of the process.</p>

<p>i never said i assumed SAT scores were the definitive variable, nor did i take that assumption into consideration anywhere in my post. They're the ones who told me they thought I was more qualified anyways! And of course I understand the complexity of creating a class. I value the fact that Stanford accepted students with comparatively low SAT scores, and the vast majority of the kids who were accepted showed proof that they deserved it and strength in other ways, which is why I noted that we need more holistic information. Did you not read my entire post? I thought explained myself pretty well, and I don't think your comments are necessary. I think SATs are fun, but I'm sort of offended that based on a short paragraph you assumed that I wouldn't do well at Amherst. That's nonsense. I greatly appreciate the notion of diversity.</p>

<p>Despite this, I do not think balanced racial acceptance, which you label "diversity," is the proper course of action. Diversity cannot be active or forced, in my opinion - if a school ends up being 100% Turkish because only Turks showed academic strength, integrity, and vitality, so be it. Why should we accept any less qualified people based on skin color or belief? I am NOT saying that this is what's happening, or that this is the scenario, I'm just making a statement about what I think should NOT happen (whether or not it actually is).</p>

<p>Chrone, you unfortunately missed my point. Even if your AA friends said that somehow they thought you deserved to be admitted over there, obviously the Admissions Committee thought otherwise. Many AA are made to believe that they are less deserving than people who have the same high SAT and gpas that almost all applicants have. You don't know what their essays said compared to yours. I literally just finished doing some graduate admissions folders and I can assure you that in spite of the high GPAs and test scores, the personal statements and essays really matter a lot to me. All of these students are "qualified" based on their test score ranges and gpas. Of course they differ but all of them can do the work. Since I'm accepting a small number of students, I do want them to be complementary and not all clones of one another. I"m not simply accepting those with the top scores and gpas. Other factors matter. It's truly pointless to argue this point because people who believe that they've been shafted by AA will never believe otherwise ,despite all the data that proves otherwise. I suppose this is a way of some people continuing to feel superior to others. And, no, an institution would NOT accept 100% Turkish students unless it was a Turkish University. Again, it's about creating a class. Reread post #43.</p>

<p>"Many AA are made to believe that they are less deserving than people who have the same high SAT and gpas that almost all applicants have."</p>

<p>That's the problem. Many AA candidates know that most people have HIGHER SATs and GPAs.</p>

<p>It's not that these beneficiaries aren't capable of doing Amherst-level work, or that they are unworthy or undeserving of their acceptance. It's that STATISTICALLY speaking, many of these students are weaker than their non-AA counterparts, and that's what riles people up.</p>

<p>If they can do the work and graduate on time with others, the stats aren't reliable. Do you think you know better than Admissions Officers what these students are capable of? 94 percent of Amherst Black students graduate within four years, second highest to Harvard which is 96. I feel sorry for you people who are beating a dead horse. There is just so much literature out here that indicates that actually the students who get preferential treatment are wealthy legacies. Admissions know well how students can prep for these exams. GPAs and other things matter significantly. It's a total package. I'm a professor and I can assure you students who have high SAT and GREs often aren't any better than those with lower scores. My daughter said that once you're in the classroom at Amherst, it's not apparent who scored what on the SAT. Nor does any one care.</p>

<p>
[quote]
It's that STATISTICALLY speaking, many of these students are weaker than their non-AA counterparts, and that's what riles people up.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Unfortunately, that's their problem. If they were as statiscally superior to their peers, then maybe they could take some time to understand STATISTICALLY how selective school admissions work. The reason that they are "riled" up is that in all their learning, they haven't learned that gaining admission to selective schools has never been a pure meritocracy. With the way the political winds are blowing, they won't be for the forseeable near future. The sooner people learn that these admission policies have a significant subjective component as well as objective criteria, they would save themselves quite a bit of mental frustration and anguish and it will temper their perceived notions of entitlement.</p>

<p>If Amherst's policy offends you, then it's obviously not the school for you. It is in the interests of a democracy that we educate people from all walks of life. We don't want to create feudalism and an inherited class structure, though of course we do have the vague outlines of this already.</p>

<p>Evidence also shows that environment and preparation are related to SAT performance. So many of the URM's schools like Amherst admits would equal or out perform their privileged peers on the SAT if raised in the same environment. </p>

<p>How can you compare the performance of someone who has to work, take care of siblings, use a public computer (any or all of these circumstances) to someone who is given an SAT tutor, unlimited computer time, his own room and access to all the resources and energy he desires?</p>

<p>I say, Bravo! Amherst.</p>

<p>Thanks Mythmom, if there was some evidence that students that are perceived as having lesser "stats" were struggling, dropping out, etc. then these complainers would have a point. That is NOT the case. These kids are doing extremely well. I'm blown away of how impressive these kids are. And to paint URM as less than is a sad and pathetic joke. In addition, admissions have NEVER been fair even before URM step foot on these campuses. You should read more about the history of admissions. Most elite (and nonelite) schools have a long history of discrimination based on race, religion, income and gender. The reason pictures and mother's maiden name use to be required on college applications was to weed out Jews who often changed their names. Thank God times have changed.</p>

<p>Several points-
Not all URMs have lower "stats." Likewise not all whites/asians have high stats. There is continuum and significant overlap. Some of the most highly accomplished students I knew at Amherst were URMs. That experience destroyed many of my own preconceived notions on race and achievement which I am sad to say that I had before entering college. That type of enlightenment is priceless and necessasry given the multicultural, multiracial society we are all a part of. Also, not all URMs come from "disadvantaged" backgrounds. Some URMs also have had many of the socioeconomic advantages that upper middle class kids have (educated parents, stable family, good local schools) or were able to attend elite prep schools if their parents were wealthy, or if these schools themselves, tried to diversify and bring in kids who would otherwise never have had such an opportunity. In some ways, these programs have merit because they help prepare such students for the transition to a challenging college environment early. In any event, I do believe that race is not the only criterion the college is looking at when it tries to diversify. Amherst also is going after socio-economic diversity, which includes whites and asians. An Asian student from New York Chinatown will be looked at differently than an Asian student from Scarsdale. It also is trying to recruit first-generation college students of all races.</p>

<p>It is too easy to look at admissions only through the lens of race. For any demographic that the college needs and prizes, it will go out and get the best possible student to fill that niche. I also believe, places like Amherst, are small enough to read applications with sensitivity and insight on these matters (although I hope they increase their staff as applications rise!). "Soft" factors such as life circumstance, personal character, leadership, motivation are important and that is why essays and recs are looked at closely.</p>

<p>To illustrate my preceding points, let me paint a different scenario. I have been told that it is not easy to find premiere athletes in hockey and football that match the college's median stats. Finding someone who knows how to tackle well , benchpress 200 lbs, runs the 40 in less than 5 seconds, and scores over 1400 on the SAT is not easy to find (although I know there are such students at Amherst and other elite schools) so it is possible that admissions staff may have to take someone who scores 1250 if that person is a recruited athlete. The college has made a decision that they want someone like that, and they will go out and get the best person, academically and athletically. that fits the bill. The student/athlete comes to Amherst and helps the football team beat Williams. Mission Accomplished :). But something more also happens. Surprsingly, the student/athlete with the lower stats finds his academic passion and ends up graduating magna cum laude. It turns out that his motivation, discipline, work ethic more than compensated for his pre-college ability to take a standardized test. The same thing happens (obviously not always) for many of the students that fill other important demographics for the college, including URMs. Colleges like Amherst are looking for students that will not just merely graduate but excel when given a chance. The Tony Jack story is a great example of what someone can do when given such asn opportunity and support. </p>

<p>In the U.S., admission to elite colleges is not purely based on stats as Madville aptly has pointed out. It is stats PLUS whatever the student brings to the college. The latter is difficult quantify. I was involved in medical school admissions previously at one of our top medical schools. We used stats a lot, particularly for our initial screening of applicants. However, once that was done, we tried to look at other soft criteria. These criteria are somewhat different than for college admissions as we do not care whether we have a first rate orchestra or football team. However, we did try to assess factors like personal character, motivation, perseverance, leadership, potential to contribute to medicine and society (even though we never had training in fortune telling) as well as "fit" for our school (Would student X be able to take full advantage of the opportunities at our school?). All of us took our responsibiities seriously, although one could argue that the class could have been determined solely by stats, and we would have selected an outstanding class by all the metrics that U.S. News deems important (I am being facetious here). On the other hand, if we didn't believe that soft factors mattered, we would not have put such efforts (all voluntarily) to meet candidates, review their apps, and argue among ourselves who we felt would be the best students for the class. I really do believe that careful consideration of these matters is important. It not only produces a better learning environment for students and faculty, but also produces that best graduates for a given school. I talked with a Japanese colleague about medical school admissions in his country which is based solely on test scores. He said they have considered moving to an American type of application as they have found that good test takers do not always make for good doctors. I think the same can be said at the undergraduate level, too.</p>

<p>Sorry about being long-winded. I got carried away but I want students, particularly those that may feel that they did not get a place despite high "stats", to realize there is a lot more than meets the eye. It also is good to wrestle with these issues, whether it be in a forum like this, or more openly with classmates, teachers, and friends. Race and racism still matters and should not be swept under the rug. Obama's recent speech on race highlights how far we have come but also how far we still need to go as a society.</p>

<p>pmyen, bravo and I totally concur with your remarks. My daughter has never received any financial aid in all of the years of her education (beginning in pre-school). I live for the day when I don't have to pay another tuition bill. I know many other Black parents who also pay FULL TUITION. Also, as you noted, our kids are extremly high achieving. It's very damaging to Black kids when some short-sighted person assumes that the Black kid is lesser qualified than they are. I really believe that Amherst is probably the most progressive institution amongst the LAC in its commitment to diversity in all of its manifestations. These Admissions Officers have done an outstanding job in bringing students from all over the world with varied and diverse backgrounds. Amherst provides its students the opportunity to not only get an outstanding education but also to interface with students so different from themselves that when they leave and go out into the world, they will be so aware, so knowledgeable and enriched by these interactions and relationships that perhaps we can have a different kind of world. One in which discussions about "stats" will be irrelevant.</p>

<p>Every study has shown that removing the URM students that were accepted with lower stats will not make any statistical difference in an individual non-URM applicant's chances, so frankly this obsession with this notion that your spot was taken by a less qualified (and if you think SAT scores = qualified I strongly disagree with that position as do admissions committees at all top colleges) applicant should at least be grounded on the facts, research, and available analysis done with regard to this debate.</p>

<p>Also, it is important to apply a VERY LARGE grain of salt to anonymous posts on a forum when it comes to the accuracy of these statistics (this is perhaps a more important consideration that just the EXTREMELY small sample size). I personally know people that have posted fake stats (i.e. much lower than the median) for URM's PURPOSELY to enrage anti-affirmative action posters to push their agenda. If the accounts were real though a user could post lower stats to encourage fellow URM's to apply or higher stats to show that they are just as qualified. But, you never know. Regardless, your frustrations are misguided.</p>

<p>URM's make up a small percentage of the overall student body at top colleges and universities and an even smaller percentage is that group of URM's with lower stats. You have to take into account the fact that URM's though are disproportionately economically or socially disadvantaged, have fewer resources when it comes to getting adequate test preparation, face discrimination TODAY even in the classroom in terms of expectations/grading (particularly in subjective areas of study), are far more likely to have less accurate information about the college admissions process, are often in addition to being URM's recruited athletes, can make contributions when it comes to diversity inside and outside of the classroom because of their unique experiences (which can be expressed in an essay), and the list goes on and on.</p>

<p>pmyen, perfectly said! This is why I said AA as it was created and implemented, is dead. Diversity is SO much more than race. I should know- D is a white diversity student, due to socio-economics. </p>

<p>And I used to be a scholarship judge. It was based on merit, not need. I, too, went through the apps to find out the top students, then I read the essays. In some cases, a student who was close in SAT and grades recieved one of the scholarships over a student who had (albeit slightly) higher stats.</p>

<p>davida1, i completely agree with you. i think this is very valid. what i do not consider valid is the outcry against using "stats" as a sole measurement, since nobody here is attempting to do so. ahem.</p>

<p>anyways, while you believe that i missed your point, you missed mine. point taken. i understand the concept of creating a class, and i have read post 43 numerous times. i disagree with the ideology. using race as a measurement of situation is a poor, poor idea. why don't we use the situation itself? don't you think a socially and educationally oppressed minority will express so in his or her essay? teacher recs won't reveal anything at all, or at least indicate the situation in some way? school reports are meaningless in deciding this? not all minorities are in compromised situations, and not all majorities aren't. i don't think labels bring diversity - the people behind them do. i think that each situation can be assessed, and then applicants can be compared on a curve, thus evening the supposed playing field. but hey, that's just me. i probably won't attend amherst, not because i dislike any policies it has, but because i fell in love with harvey mudd this weekend.</p>

<p>regardless, i agree with you all on all other counts, and i still think it sounds like you haven't been really thinking through what i'm trying to say. pymen, i completely agree with your long-winded post, and i really appreciate it i understand what you're getting at, i really really do. i don't think i was unfairly wait listed or rejected from anywhere (for the comment about the other non-statistical data between me and my AA friends, of course we exchanged essays and helped each other. they ARE my friends, anyways, so it's not as though i knew nothing of their application besides stats - but lets set this knowledge aside). BUT, my philosophy is that if, after adjusting for situation, if one student shows more intellectual vitality than another based on a holistic application, false indicators like skin color should not allow the less qualified to be accepted over the more. i think this is a pretty fair assessment, and although i'm obviously not sure if it has been broken by any schools, including amherst, i wouldn't be surprised. your comment about my turkish scenario seems to show that it has been, and so be it. i'm not going to throw a fit or be upset; it isn't that big of a deal. but, i disagree with the policy.</p>

<p>Good luck to you, Chone, wherever you go. I have heard good things about Harvey Mudd but do not know too much about their programs. Have been told it is like a mini-MIT with a strong undergraduate focus. When I was a freshman, two profs (from the English and Chemistry depts.) came to our dorm one evening, and had an open and relaxing conversation on the "meaning" of our freshman year with the residents. The English prof., Armour Craig, saw his role by quoting what his prof., Robert Frost, said was his responsibility, which was to "frisk them of their coltishness." I still remember that line. It works both ways for students and teachers, as you make us question our preconceived notions, and if necessary to defend or discard them, too. Wherever you go, I hope you will not only challenge others' assumptions but also your own. A healthy combination of both skepticism and openness (sprinkled with a bit of humility) will help make college an enjoyable and transformative experience.</p>

<p>Chrone, what irony, I actually teach at the Claremont Colleges. Harey Mudd is top-notched and yes, is a mini-MIT but has the advantage of having a great liberal arts component as well. You have nothing to complain about.</p>