LOW AP Scores

Parents Forum
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<p>It just means she have to take the class again in college. If the rest of her work is up to snuff, no worries.</p>

<p>A side note, about those immediately blaming the teacher without knowing. Hey, maybe the guidence counselor should be blamed for encouraging a class the student wasn't prepared for. I know a very respected BIO teacher who retired last year because his frustration level was so high with AP classes. We talked a bit away from school about how for the first time ever he was flunking a third of the students in his classes because they weren't ready for AP Bio. It tore him up. He couldn't reduce the course to their level because their level wasn't strong enough to pass the AP exam. </p>

<p>In the last few years because of college competition pressure, a swell to AP classes where the goal is to just get it on a transcript. A "C" becomes the goal. A 3 for a AP score is "great". It is always easier to blame a third party for an outcome, rather than look inward. </p>

<p>Maybe some students aren't doing the hour of homework each AP class really requires. To get a 4 or a 5 consistantly on AP exams (hey, even a blind pig finds an acorn once in awhile) a student must study away from class...almost nightly. Some HS students just aren't prepared for that commitment.</p>

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<p>Opie--I don't think my S was wrongly placed (graduated 7th in class, got an A both years of the US History class). He also got 5's in English and Comp Sci APs (our Comp Sci teacher is amazing; usually all the kids in the class get 5's, and many are not otherwise top students in the school.) Sometimes, it really is the teacher, or, in the case of our USH classes, the two year set up.</p>

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<p>We got AP scores here in California on Saturday. I was so pleased for D, who got a 4 in US history and a 3 in English. She had an excellent teacher (the classes were combined and taught by one teacher and his student pass rate for both tests is over 90%) and that made all the difference, since she is an average student. :)</p>

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<p>The AP courses my son took were A LOT of work to get A's in. He didn't take AP Bio, but I understand that involves a HUGE workload. This teacher is so good he just got a national award for producing the most 4 and 5 scorers in the country. I think these courses shouldn't be open to kids who haven't shown they can do the work, but the pressure to have them on the transcript pushes kids to feel they have to take a lot of them. I think it's absurd that kids are feeling they have to do 3 or 4 years of college level work in order to be good candidates for college admission.</p>

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<p>I heard a rumor that the AP people are doing a national audit to determine who is teaching, who is enrolled and what is being taught. There are so many unqualified teachers teaching AP and students being enrolled who don't belong in, what are essentially, college level courses. Apparently, there is a push to really tighten up the entire system. Maybe the low scores, and the fact that fewer colleges are automatically accepting AP as proof of mastery, is having an impact. </p>

<p>Our district just started allowing sophomores to take AP World History and this was after a huge battle. The staff did not think that sophomores were ready for the college level pace (we in California are at a disadvantage, because we start school later and are short about 3 weeks...our kids don't start school until 2nd week of September!). Now they allow only sophomore that test into the course (only one or two sections taught). The first year AP World was taught to sophomores 2005), the results were not so great and the district has tightened up even more on who can take it. This year is looking much better. An occasional super-star kid can get into AP Music Theory or Calc or Chem early. All kids need to test into AP classes. Our teachers teach at the college pace (if not faster, to make up time). As a result our kids average in the 4's. The one exception is AP Physics, where few kids get 5's or 4's. Mostly they get 3's. The teacher has a lousy attitude and tells the kids that "no one scores a 5 on AP Physics." His teaching seems to be the problem because these same kids get 4's and 5's on AP Calc BC and AP Chem.</p>

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<p>Our school allows/encourages any student who wants to to sign up for AP's. The system is of the idea that even less academically inclined students are better off taking the most challenging classes. Every year they print in the newspaper what percentage of each high school's population was enrolled in at least 1 AP. It's supposed to make it appear that the school is really advanced and teaching everyone on a high level. It's really just window dressing for the school system. </p>

<p>Sophomores are allowed to take AP's. My S1 took one AP as soph. as was the general practice then (2003). S2, a rising senior says most of the advanced kids now take two as a soph. and three or four for jr. and sr. year. </p>

<p>The sad thing is the results of state mandated final exams(for regular classes like Alg. 1, Geom., US History) were just released and only three or four schools (out of 20 h.s's in our district) had a pass rate above 70%.
I think the GC's need to stop pushing AP so hard and work on shoring up the teaching in the regular classes. My S2 took honors US History this year and S2 knew more U.S. History than the teacher who was a first year teacher/former college football player. S2 said every U.S History class (outside of AP) at his school had a first or second year teacher. The exam pass-rate was abysmal. S2 made a B. Thank goodness for the History Channel.</p>

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<p>I think AP scores are a reflection of the student. I had a great teacher. I got a 5 on my AP US History. Another girl in my class got a 2. Why? I'm better than her. People should start taking responsibility for their own actions. Don't blame it on the teacher, even if it makes you feel better. Your daughter probably isn't that bright in the subject.</p>

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<p>Unfortunately, I suspect that many schools may have the same problem as our local high school--the AP classes may be too hard for a particular student, but the "regular" classes are too easy and filled with non-motivated kids. There's no good middle ground.</p>

<p>[No AP scores in this part of CA--maybe they'll come today...]</p>

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<p>The AP Bio teacher at our school has a Phd. and provides mounds and mounds o material beyond the text book. Virtually the entire class gets 4s or 5s. No one is allowed to take it who hasn't already had Regent's Bio first. (Which is a standard part of our 8th grade advanced curriculum.) </p>

<p>To #27, I think it's a mix. It's certainly a lot easier to do well in an AP class with a good teacher, but obviously a bright student can teach themselves the work if the teacher is inadequate. But I don't think students always realize when a teacher isn't covering the material well enough.</p>

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<p>"Opie--I don't think my S was wrongly placed (graduated 7th in class, got an A both years of the US History class). He also got 5's in English and Comp Sci APs (our Comp Sci teacher is amazing; usually all the kids in the class get 5's, and many are not otherwise top students in the school.) Sometimes, it really is the teacher, or, in the case of our USH classes, the two year set up."</p>

<p>"If the rest of her work is up to snuff, no worries."</p>

<p>Did you miss this part?</p>

<p>"A side note, about those immediately blaming the teacher without knowing"</p>

<p>Did I say you in particular?</p>

<p>Just as simple as I can put it, I will add general comments to posts, they aren't meant to be directed at the OP, but just an in general comment or observation. </p>

<p>In this case, it's about students going into AP's without really understanding the commitment to these classes that is required. </p>

<p>"Sometimes, it really is the teacher, or, in the case of our USH classes, the two year set up."</p>

<p>Absolutely, how did the rest of the class do? Was this that teacher's first year teaching that particular AP Class? Is there a history of poor scores?
Before I burn up the teacher I would need to know more. </p>

<p>Is there also a possibility you S just blew one? I've just run across alot of teachers that are hated by some families, loved by others in the same class... a good teacher can be labeled bad, and a bad teacher can be labeled good, depending on who's talking. It is hard to establish if this educator is really bad, based only your child's test score. </p>

<p>Since the AP test is a standardized national test and the text books are the same, regardless of the teacher... what happened?</p>

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<p>That's why it's imperative that kids take a look at an appropriate study guide, no only for AP but if they are planning to take an SAT 2 subject test. I'd use CC to find out which books the kids think are good ones to study from.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I heard a rumor that the AP people are doing a national audit to determine who is teaching, who is enrolled and what is being taught.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The audit process </p>

<p><a href="http://apcentral.collegeboard.com/apc/public/courses/teachers_corner/46361.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://apcentral.collegeboard.com/apc/public/courses/teachers_corner/46361.html&lt;/a> </p>

<p>consists mostly of outside reviewers evaluating syllabuses submitted by high school teachers of AP courses. As you can imagine, this is a frequent topic of discussion on the various email lists for AP teachers. I think on the whole it is good to get teachers thinking about what they are teaching and how they are teaching it, with the possible result of making some courses with the "AP" brand name become a little better, while some other, more marginal courses drop the brand name. </p>

<p>College Board remains absolutely, positively committed to allowing very open participation in taking the AP tests, in particular pointing out that no one need take an AP course before taking an AP test, and that homeschoolers and all manner of self-studiers are very welcome to sit for AP tests. As I type this, I am still awaiting today's mail delivery and have no idea how my son did on this year's AP tests, his first.</p>

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<p>Opie--I'll try again. As I said, most of the class got 2's, a few 3's. We like the teachers, the 10th grade one wrote recs for him.</p>

<p>I had no reason to think one needed to buy study guides for classes; that's not how we work in our home. We assumed that the classes were set up for the tests and would provide the framework for learning--isn't that the point? Believe it or not, some people live in towns where cramming and tutoring aren't the norm; we honestly didn't know we needed to make up for what wasn't taught in the class.</p>

<p>As I said in my post, the same student got 5's in his other APs.</p>

<p>No one is asking you to "burn" a teacher; but to have a little respect for your fellow posters to know their situations better than you do.</p>

<p>My H is a teacher--I am not out to get teachers. The fact is, the UPUSH at our school is indeed set up very badly. Why is that so hard for you to accept as a possibility?</p>

<p>Anyway, Opie, this kid whom you assume dropped the ball managed to get into and do well in an Ivy, my main point here. And his fellow classmates with similar scores are doing fine, too.</p>

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<p>No AP scores in CA yet. Maybe it will be here soon.</p>

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<p>Yeah, 3 of my son's AP courses were wonderful. The 4th--AP Calc--he had to teach himself because the teacher wasn't able.</p>

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<p>To the OP, I'd reassure your D by pointing to the fact that she's a sophomore.
Her study skills will strengthen with every course she takes in h.s. as a junior, then senior.</p>

<p>Think about it. This whole AP thing started for seniors, if I'm not mistaken, to give them some leg up on college credits and to place out of introductory college courses. </p>

<p>Then it got pushed down so juniors took the courses, to impress the colleges that they were taking them, and hopefully (not necessarily) to report appealing scores as "extras" on their college application forms in optional entry places...since they don't ask for it. </p>

<p>Then, who knows why it's the case that sophomores are taking the courses.</p>

<p>Our experience was this: our S showed great strength in only one subject area (History) as a freshman. His teacher quietly told him to take summer school and get done with l0th grade history (actually here it's called "Global Studies" in 9th and l0th grades), so he could take AP-U.S.History as a sophomore. I questioned the teacher up and down about it. He said he only recommends it in a few rare situations where he was the 9th grade teacher and saw great skill in his own classroom. </p>

<p>So he took only that one AP as a sophomore, and from a different teacher than the one that recommended him in. He worked very hard and it seemed no matter how hard he tried in the class, he struggled and got B's. The teacher at October conference said it's very hard for sophomores to ever make an A in his AP class, because they haven't yet had the extra year of work in English class for writing, and the age maturity of course. But he was learning well and enjoyed the challenge, so he finished the course and worked hard all along. To his astonishment he got a 5 on the AP, and 100% on NYState Regents U.S.History (MUCH easier test) so we know his AP score wasn't a fluke. So I think that says good things about the original teacher's diagnostic ability, the other teacher who taught the class, and finally my son for doing the work.</p>

<p>The following year he took 4 AP's, and as the year went on it became evident that the cumulative effect of all his studies helped him handle his second year with AP's. . In his situation, he skipped llth grade (not so brilliant, just took summer courses to polish off requirements) so in fact he was a senior that year. </p>

<p>It was a world of difference from when he took AP's as a sophomore! Remember, for your D, that all those other "regular" classes she takes contribute to her ability to handle the AP work.</p>

<p>Just chalk this one up. She learned from the course, so that strengthened her. Her score of 1 will not be reported (you'll check that for sure). She'll still have it on her transcript that she took an AP as a sophomore, so that demonstrates grit and motivation.</p>

<p>As for the SAT's, that's a whole different kettle of fish. Those are tests that tap into her general ability to reason, solve mathematical problems, and write.
They are less tied to a specific course curriculum or any single teacher. The way she prepares will be quite different from AP preparation. </p>

<p>But something else to learn from this experience is that knowing the types of questions that appear on a test is essential to doing well. She sounds like someone who will benefit from reading the test books on SAT prep, all about the types of questions and strategies for answering different kinds of questions. She might want to practice (not at first, but after a while) taking timed tests at home for the SAT sections. Read under CC's "Sat Prep" section the sticky thread called "Xiggi's Method" because he approaches the whole issue of taking timed tests differently, and I think he's got a great insight.</p>

<p>My purpose writing was not to boast of my son. I just told the story because I think that taking an AP as a sophomore has many potential pitfalls, and that's likely a big cause of your D's 1, along with any problems you might uncover about how the actual course was taught and whether or not they did good AP prep in the classroom. </p>

<p>At the very least, it gives her a face-saving way to think about this, so it won't unnerve her when she studies for and takes her SAT's, or attempts future AP courses as a junior or senior.</p>

<p>Good wishes to your D.</p>

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<p>"My H is a teacher--I am not out to get teachers. The fact is, the UPUSH at our school is indeed set up very badly. Why is that so hard for you to accept as a possibility?"</p>

<p>No, it's not that hard, what does your husband think you should do? I am assuming he teaches in the same district? What's the grapevine say? It is not hard for me to accept that it could be set up poorly. How long has the program been in place and have you contributed comments to the decision makers along those lines? </p>

<p>I'm met with the people above the teachers in charge of programs (those who actually decide what teachers teach) in our case. Have you brought your concern to the decision maker on the class? </p>

<p>A bunch of low scores means somewhere... that class OR along the lines to that class is not being done well enough to get students where they need to be. Could it be down the line? In the AP Bio case, the junior high was the weak link..before AP, kids were coming in really bright, but really not ready for AP Bio. While it may be too late for your student, putting the administration on the right track with your concerns maybe causes them to review the situation and make changes. </p>

<p>"Anyway, Opie, this kid whom you assume dropped the ball managed to get into and do well in an Ivy, my main point here. And his fellow classmates with similar scores are doing fine, too. "</p>

<p>Well, that's great but that wasn't your main point either dearheart.</p>

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<p>I see now how it got sidetracked. I thought you were the original poster..</p>

<p>hence the no worries part..</p>

<p>You actually are the "no worries" part. A bad score didn't end all life as we know it. </p>

<p>Again don't personalize a general comment and you won't have to get upset.
I'll try and do a better job remembering who the orginal poster is..</p>

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<p>At my kids' school the AP teachers are all over the map. Theres a great math teacher, whose students get average grades in the class, but who invariably all score 4s and 5s on the test. Then there's the US History teacher. <sigh> So many of his students elected to not even take the test that he resorted to some not-so-subtle retaliation against those who opted out. I'll be another to opine that I can accept a teacher who gives B's to students who score 5's, but if a teacher gives A's to students who score below 3 - he's doing a bad job of teaching the subject, and should be replaced.</sigh></p>

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<p>You have to bounce the AP test score off the AP course grade. If a student receives an A or B in the course, but gets a 1 or 2 on the test, that says something about the TEACHER, not the student. Either the teacher's course material is totally unrelated to the test, or the teacher is a lousy teacher, or there is significant grade inflation. None of those things reflect on the student. A student who has received an A has done exactly what was expected and more, from the teacher. </p>

<p>At our hs, some APs are more <em>open</em> than others. Just about everyone takes the English APs and the Social Studies APs. Most students get As, Bs, or Cs; yet there are quite a few "failing" AP test scores. On the other hand, in the maths and sciences, the teachers are very picky about who gets into the class to begin with. Most students, again, get As, Bs, and Cs; however, most or all students end up with 4s and 5s on the tests. There is some self-selection involved.</p>