low grades, good SAT: what schools to apply to

Parents Forum
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<p>I think if your S pulls his SAT Math score up into the 600s, he’ll be an attractive catch for a lot of schools in the US News #50 to #100 range. That 750 SAT CR is a VERY strong score, as is the 780 US History SAT II. Schools in this range of selectivity see–and admit–many “unbalanced” candidates, strong in some areas and weaker in others. They’ll give serious consideration to kids who are in, say their third quartile of SAT M scorers but well into their top quartile in CR. That’s exactly what you’ve got here: your S’s weaknesses in his GPA are just exactly the same as the weaknesses in his SAT scores. Often high SAT scores combined with a weaker GPA suggest a kid who is smart but inattentive to his studies, but that’s not the case here. You’re right to be looking for a somewhat smaller school that will look at the whole application and not just crunch the numbers on GPA and SAT scores; they’ll see he’s not a math whiz but is actually a very strong student in the kinds of things he wants to study. </p>

<p>I’d say GW is a bit reachy, and BU may be, too, but I wouldn’t rule them out. Schools like American, Fordham, Drexel and Syracuse are a better bet. Among smaller schools I’d look at Clark University, maybe Lafayette, Dickinson, Ursinus, Muhlenburg. (I’m assuming your S wants to stay in the Northeast?) These are good schools with relatively high acceptance rates. Your S’s SAT CR score will put him well into the top quartile at all these schools, and if they have any sense at all they’ll forgive a little weakness in math because they’ll be getting a student who will perform very well in his major and in most of his classes. Another place you might consider is the College of New Jersey, a highly regarded small state school. It goes a little under the radar in US News which lists it as a “regional university (north)” but it’s reputed to have good academics and is a good value for NJ residents. Some other highly rated “regional universities” in the Northeast: Villanova, Providence, and Ithaca College.</p>

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<p>I would say Drexel would be a match for him. My S was admitted there last year with a not stellar GPA but good SAT’s (but the stronger score was math, and he was an engineering admit). Also, not much merit at that GPA/SAT range, but your S’s GPA was probably higher than my S’s.</p>

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<p>The GPA of 3.85 of 4.5 is not that low. Since he will get scholarship from ROTC, he should be able to find a reasonably good school and not need to worry about lack of merit $.</p>

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<p>I think your son has a decent chance at GW. There’s a lot of scatter in the acceptances there on my kids’ Naviance with weighted grades from about a 3.5 to a 4.8 out of 5.0 (it’s actually not really possible to score 5.0 because a few required courses like pe aren’t weighted) and SATs from 1000-1550 on a 1600 scale, and from 1500-2250 on a 2400 scale.</p>

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<p>in many schools, a lopsided SAT score can be “solved” by the ACT since the composite is the one that is considered for admission; has your son tried that? given his SAT, I would imagine that his ACT would hover around 30 and solve your problem…in addition, the ACT is “technically” 75% reading/english and 25% math which also helps…surprised that your GC didn’t suggest that…</p>

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<p>bclintonk – thanks for your list. My son has a similar problem to OPs son, only worse GPA 3.0 uw, 3.16 uw and slightly better SATs (cr 660, m 740, w 760). AP scores are three 4s (euro, apush, calc) and a 2 (french. ugh). he’s looking at NROTC and I share the same concern with OP, that the big state schools may only look at GPA and toss him out or, that he doesn’t actually do NROTC and then is at a big state school where he might get lost in a crowd. </p>

<p>will consider schools anywhere and everywhere. son’s only requirement, that it have a football team to cheer for.</p>

<p>Army ROTC seems to be available at many more schools than NROTC, but AROTC just isn’t what son wants to do.</p>

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<p>Liz - One more here. My son has similar situation like yours but with a little higher SAT and lower GPA. When we visited one college this spring, there was a boy sit beside my son, he said, in his school, 86 is an A. We were so shocked, in my son’s school, 94 is a B !<br>
So, every school is different.<br>
Don’t worry too much (I know that’s impossible, I’m a rising-senior-mom too). go ahead and apply for his dream school.</p>

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<p>Arizona State.</p>

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<p>I second the suggestion that he try the ACT, preferably taking a practice test first. We also found that a few sessions with a private tutor (maybe 5 hour and a half sessions) made a huge difference for D – not so much in teaching her math as in teaching her how to maximize the math score she could reasonably obtain by being very careful to get the easy problems right and not worrying about trying to get to all of the questions. Between that, and a little bit of coaching on the science section, she did markedly better than her first unprepped attempt at the ACT, and the composite score turned out just fine.</p>

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<p>I suggest the University of Alabama. Great honors program, and some selective honors programs such as Computer Based Honors Program and University Fellows. As for “low” GPA, but high SAT/ACT, he would have no problem getting into the honors program and receiving a very generous scholarship. A wonderful school. Even though it’s huge, a very nurturing environment. Lots of OOS students there now because of the great sports and scholarships, so no problem fitting in. People are so nice! Apply, try to get a visit in, and see if it’s for him!</p>

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<p>Do not be concerned with rankings. We had no idea about rankings when D. applied. She just choose schools based on her criteria and see which ones will give her the best opportunities. However, she never was concerned with elite status prestige,…etc, just wanted to have normal college experience at place that seems to be the best match. </p>

<p>In regard to ranking, her HS did not rank. However, most colleges calculate student rank based on student GPA and class profile (all schools provide this). It is not relevant if you provide your rank or not, colleges will know / estimate if they care. </p>

<p>However, the absolute most important is an attitude change in regard to college GPA. High college GPA is very important and opens up lots of opportunities while at college as well as after graduating.</p>

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<p>Liz: You are selling him short. He will get into Penn State with no problem. He will get into most of the schools on the list.</p>

<p>He shoul be careful taking the SAT again. If he does worse, it may hurt his chances.</p>

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<p>Liz: when your son applies to Rutgers, ask him to apply early. He will not have a problem getting in but Rutgers has rolling admissions and it is better to apply early. Because of the recession and all that a lot of people are opting for the in-state option these days.</p>

<p>Good luck! He should not have a problem with the list suggested earlier. I mean he will get in to some of those schools. </p>

<p>Blossom is also 100% right on finding the right teacher to teach Math. Your son might do well once he finds a great prof (or even TA) in college. You know, I had just non-honors Math in High School because my HS did not offer advanced Math. I spent a summer with a great teacher teaching me the basics of Calculus. I went to an Engineering college in India with an “open and unassigned to any branch of Engineering” admissions policy. It isn’t important what the “open” policy is, but the gist of what I’m trying to tell you is that, after an initial struggle through Calculus with other top Math students from all over India, I did very very well in college and was even the top student in many Math courses. I attribute that to my teacher during the one summer when I learned Calculus. I eventually majored in Electronics Engineering at the college and was one of the top students there.</p>

<p>At least for me, it was a matter of gaining confidence in oneself that I could do Math like others. Once I had that, I was successful.</p>

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<p>Completely agree with it. I would have delayed my son’s entry to college by a year if I knew this before.</p>

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<p>I realize I’m three weeks late her, but OP, I cannot emphasize enough how important it is, as respects his ROTC application, to get the math at least to 600, preferably a little higher.</p>

<p>ROTC, and the service academies, put much more emphasis on the math score than the other two… you were correct in noting that earlier in this thread.</p>

<p>If you would simply find a way to get a private math tutor familiar with the SAT to spend 4-5 sessions (usually about $80 - $100 per session) with your son, it could bring his math score to where the ROTC wants to see it – 600+. He’s only 10 points off! Even without tutoring, he would likely surpass 600 based only on familiarity with the test… but better not to take the risk.</p>

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<p>Don’t cross off Penn State. There is a chart somewhere on CC that shows the GPA and SAT scores and likely admissions. They use weighted GPA, according to this chart. Can anyone find it for the OP?
He could apply to Penn State, indicate that he is willing to start in the summer, and apply early because it is rolling admission and an earlier application means a more likely admission.</p>

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<p>S is in same boat, mismatch SAT/GPA. His SAT/ACT scores put him in the upper 5% of students at his school, GPA is at around the 50% mark. S took the ACT also because we heard the ACT is a more of what you know test vs SAT which is an intellegence test. S scored equally well on the ACT, so he will submit both tests to colleges in case it helps. All the schools he is applying to are safeties wrt SAT, 3 are reaches wrt GPA and all the others are matches and safeties. He will be applying to 12-13 schools. His GC told him to apply to a larger than normal number because she doesn’t know how schools are going to react to the mismatch. </p>

<p>Some of the schools you might look at are Lehigh, James Madison, Miami in OH and possibly Wash U in StL. Also how about the Jesuit schools? We have found that there are many fine schools outside the top 100 schools. S would be happy, so he says, at any of the 12 or so schools he is applying to. </p>

<p>Good luck to your S.</p>

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<p>NROTC and AFROTC require two semesters of college Calculus and two sem. of Physics. AROTC and Marines do not require either of those. His math SAT will prob. not hurt him.
S1 did NROTC. Some of his Navy ROTC friends ended up switching to AROTC due to the math reqs. Army didn’t care.</p>

<p>OP, I don’t proclaim to be an AROTC expert but when S applied NROTC at least one of his top three choices had to be a public university. Does Army ROTC have the same req.?
If you don’t know, you might need to check into it to be safe. </p>

<p>Is Army ROTC a top priority for your S? If so, think carefully about which school he puts as his top choice. If he is awarded a AROTC scholarship but then is not accepted into his top choice school, it might be difficult to get the scholarship transferred. Also, has he done any research into the AROTC units at the schools he’s looking at. All are not created equal. Has he sent in his AROTC app. yet? The earlier the better.</p>

<p>My S did NROTC at a big state u.(loved it) with a strong NROTC unit. A ROTC unit with a good staff can be very helpful come service selection time in senior yr. of college.</p>

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<p>A couple of points. I think you are being too binary and too pessimistic. </p>

<p>1) Only the very top schools look at weighted GPA, most publics look at unweighted GPA. Therefore you need to know both numbers. </p>

<p>2) If you have access to your school’s Naviance, I recommend that you use it to try to assess the probability of your son getting into each school. Looking at published stats from the schools, it’s very easy to be too pessimistic, but your son seems like a pretty reasonable student and many people struggle with math. His math isn’t terrible. Anyway, with Naviance, you can look at a decent neighborhood around your point, and try to estimate the chances that he will get in. It’s usually one of the following
a) safety - There is a clear region where kids get in and a clear region where kids don’t get in and he’ll get in no brainer.
b) match - There is a clear region where kids get in, a clear region where kids don’t get in and a murky area in the middle. If he’s in that region, try to figure out if it’s around 50-50 or very low probability
c) reach - he’s in the region where very few kids don’t get in
d) almost hopeless - there is plenty of data and nobody gets in with his stats - this is as unlikely as a safety is safe. In other words, your unemotional assessment of the probability given the data is zero. Unless it’s like the top choice, don’t bother.
e) indeterminate - either not enough data - try to assess probability with other sources
f) indeterminate - no rhyme or reason to the data, hardly anybody gets in, or top students get waitlisted, average students get in - I treat these as reaches. From our HS, GWU is like that - Tufts syndrome up the wazoo, the best students get waitlisted while poorer students get admitted. This could be a bonus for your son especially if he applies ED since GWU is clearly concerned with yield. </p>

<p>Once you can assess the probability of getting in, he can create his list so that he can figure out the probability of actually ATTENDING a given school. Assuming a given preference ordering, the probability of actually attending is the product of the probabilities (between 0 and 1) of getting rejected from all of the more preferable schools multiplied by the probability of getting into that particular school. </p>

<p>Since finances aren’t a factor, you shouldn’t need to apply to that many schools. </p>

<p>He can attempt to rank his preferences. These may be murky, but he probably wants to avoid applying to a school where he a very low probability (say less than 5%) of attending for example if his 5th choice is an uber reach but his 4th choice is a match, then he would only go there if he got rejected by all 4 of his first 4 choices AND got into his 5th. You can see how the probability is so low of that happening that’s it’s probably not worth the investment of time to apply. </p>

<p>In my D’s case, she wasn’t sure about her top choice, but there were 4 schools that thought could have been her top choice, the two she felt strongest about both of which had EA, and one of these two EA schools was a match. She also had a list of 6 other schools that she was willing to attend, including 2 safeties. </p>

<p>She applied to a public rolling safety in September, got accepted in October, had the two EA applications in on-time with acceptances by mid Dec. She only ended up half-heartedly filling out the other two reach applications neither of which accepted her. Had she been denied from both EA schools, she would have filled out the other 5 applications. So in the end, only 5 completed applications were filed, and she chose the match over the reach and is very happy. </p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

<p>Also, I want to thank him for volunteering to serve our country.</p>