<p>Ummm DunninLA honesty is certainly not severly underrated in society. I know we all like to think it is but that was not the case at all at my high school. We had an honor code installed. When a person was accused of cheating they would use the fact that they signed the honor code as a way of getting out of it. They would play it off like “how can the school have an honor code if they can’t trust people who sign it?”. Perhaps this only happened in my high school but that is doubtful.</p>
<p>Although I believe lying is wrong, it is inevitable. Hypocritical students will cheat just to get even with the other students that cheat on their applications. I believe that lying is wrong, but at the end, the person who lied will loose because they will forever know that they had to cheat to get in. My friend felt guilty cause he put a prospective position that he was so sure he was going to continue having, but he never got it. He was already accepted into that college, and was worried sick for months, and maybe years. The point is… you don’t know everyone’s situation… you must be very careful what you do. Leave it up to the college admissions and the HS faculty to do the coordinating because they are the only people who should be viewing anything on one’s application, both legally and ethically. Snitching is not common because it is never going to be accounted for unless the person doing the snitching was a counselor or a senior sponsor for the activity. Still, it is very important that the counselor speaks to the student to give them alittle FYI about the importance in honesty. The goal is to teach the student, not to punish them severely by ruining their life. They will learn through compassion. If you slaughter them by taking away their dreams just because they were ignorant will cause them to probably cheat more to make up for their loss, or much worse. If you don’t have authority and if you are a nobody, don’t be involved in a situation that has no relevance to you. You may be very surprised as what could possibly happen. In many places, you may get shot or get murdered for doing such an act, so think logically and reasonably before you decide to do such a daring action that has no impact on your life whatsoever. My 2 cents</p>
<p>Bottom line on ECs:
If you lie about something big enough to affect your admissions, it’ll be something that can be verified, and eventually you’ll be found out, even if it’s years later.
If you lie about something that can’t be verified, it’s unlikely to affect your admissions anyway.</p>
<p>Lying about being president of a club or padding one’s community service hours are the latter.</p>
<p>Remember, honesty is always easier: you don’t have to remember what you told people!</p>
<p>Umm…</p>
<p>Only downside, no upside for someone to lie.</p>
<p>Fudging about being the president of some HS club or clubs is not going to turn a rejection into an acceptance. It could, however, turn an acceptance into a rejection if found out.</p>
<p>Ad coms do not care about the titular presidency of some HS club - they really do not. (The might be interested in something one ACCOMPLISHED while in the club whether as president or not, but they don’t care about the title itself.)</p>
<p>EXCEPT perhaps in those instances where multiple students claim the same club positions. That sort of thing can indeed send up a red flag a generate a phone call to the school for an explanation. It does not end well for those bending the truth.</p>
<p>I don’t think it’s wrong to turn someone in if you know they’re cheating. There’s no reason to condone cheating or let it slide. There was a kid who had a website containing all the answers/projects/homeworks/etc for a class I was in during high school (including test answers! The teacher never changed the tests apparently). I found it through an AIM profile of a friend of a friend. I thought it was unfair that people like me could spend hours working legitimately while others could just steal and get full credit – and this would skew the class curve and make it harder for others to get A’s. So I turned the kid in as well as those who were using his site, and all hell broke loose.</p>
<p>I am basically siding with Reddune on this one. There is no reason why I or other honest students should have to work harder to compensate for cheaters. The thought of my honest grades being negatively adjusted as a result of others cheating their way to the top just makes my blood boil. Even though I could have probably gotten the A in that course with the cheaters still present, I didn’t want to take that risk at the time. I was better off taking a no-risk approach: I just gave the teacher the URL in an anonymous Email from a newly-made account and gave the names of the people involved. The problem solved itself pretty quickly from there.</p>
<p>If you’re going to try to screw the system, and if that is going to screw with me in some way, and if I somehow find out about how you’re trying to screw with it all, then I am going to screw you.</p>
<p>Lying on your application to college is a bad idea too. It ALWAYS… me off when people would advocate “exaggerating things on your resume since everyone else would be doing it” as if it were some kind of universal rule. I didn’t exaggerate a … thing on my resume and I got into more good schools than most kids on CC do. Why? Because I didn’t have to BS anything. All my interviews were honest, and my passions were true, and I had the material to back up every single claim. </p>
<p>People who blow up their hours or make up positions or lie about positions are taking huge risks. Come on, there’s no way you are working a 35-hour-per-week job while actively participating in 15 rigorous clubs while being the President of at least 6 of them while also acing your all-AP schedule. A lot of the time, kids blow up their numbers without considering that their numbers are either unrealistic, or add up to amounts greater than the number of possible hours that could even be used! My friend who was applying to Harvard showed me her application, and I pointed out that her EC schedule only left her with 5 hours a week to sleep, eat, bathe, or do just about anything else. </p>
<p>A lot of interviewers will also sometimes ask you about leadership positions on your resume or application, and that’s when the BS usually comes to an end. It usually becomes pretty clear if you’re lying or not. I know someone personally who lied about a leadership position and was called out during his interview because it was clear he didn’t know things that he should have known… needless to say, he didn’t get in.</p>
<p>I’m just saying, the more honest you are in your application, the better off you’ll be, really. If you have to BS your way into a hard school, then you’re going to get crushed by the guys who got there honestly. Your interviews will be better if you’re honest about your skills and positions. Everything just has a much more authentic aura to it, and it really shows through in your application.</p>
<p>Take it from me – my acceptance record was really great, and my application didn’t really even approach the horribly overbloated applications a lot of these schools get.</p>
<p>Quote: “I was better off taking a no-risk approach: I just gave the teacher the URL in an anonymous email from a newly-made account and gave the names of the people involved. The problem solved itself pretty quickly from there.”</p>
<p>That won’t work if you are trying to get someone rescinded. For one thing, you reported them not through your sense of justice, but because you felt vindictive against the individuals. For something as big as colleges, one would have to be a member of the school faculty or the counselor her/himself to report an individual’s dishonesty. They wouldn’t listen to another student, especially if that person tries remaining anonymous, or.. if that student is competing for the same school with that individual. Lying is wrong, but don’t encourage a snitching war against other people, especially since there are so many ways one can get you back. Libel and defaming an individual is really easy to do, and it can be done in so many ways. I would hate to be caught in the middle of the battle of a slandering war with other people.</p>
<p>"For something as big as colleges, one would have to be a member of the school faculty or the counselor her/himself to report an individual’s dishonesty. "
Not necessarily. I doubt if colleges would investigate an anonymous message that said, “Student X always cheats on tests.” However, an anonymous message that said, “Student X said on their application that they are African American, but they actually are white” or “Student X was suspended from school last April after stealing and distributing copies of teachers’ tests” probably would cause the admissions officer to call a GC to ask about the situation.</p>
<p>Executive: It’s a mix of both. I was just giving a personal example. If I knew someone was cheating someone ELSE out of their grade I would have done the same thing. </p>
<p>Slandering wars are usually quite useless unless there’s proof. I’ve gotten in plenty of scuffles with people who were just jealous for whatever reason, but it doesn’t last long. It takes two to fight. If you just let bygones be bygones, you’ll be fine.</p>
<p>"I don’t think it’s wrong to turn someone in if you know they’re cheating. There’s no reason to condone cheating or let it slide. There was a kid who had a website containing all the answers/projects/homeworks/etc for a class I was in during high school (including test answers! The teacher never changed the tests apparently). I found it through an AIM profile of a friend of a friend. I thought it was unfair that people like me could spend hours working legitimately while others could just steal and get full credit – and this would skew the class curve and make it harder for others to get A’s. So I turned the kid in as well as those who were using his site, and all hell broke loose.</p>
<p>I am basically siding with Reddune on this one. There is no reason why I or other honest students should have to work harder to compensate for cheaters."</p>
<p>I agree. Anyone who lets cheaters slide is virtually as unethical as are the cheaters, and also is hurting themselves and the other honest students.</p>
<p>I’m in the insurance business. Many, both individuals and business owners, seem to think they can lie on their insurance applications, or lie on an insurance claim, and nobody is hurt except the “greedy, superrich insurance company”.</p>
<p>What they fail to realize is that insurance companies are owned not by “them”, but by… us! The insurance companies issue stock, and good people buy it – individuals, teachers’ retirement plans, retired auto workers, etc. when a fraudlent claim costs money to 1) investigate, and 2) settle, every owner of the company sees a little piece of the company’s value go down. But that’s not the worst. The insurance company then makes up for that cost by increasing the premium for the next year just a little, for ALL companies in that class of business (the class of dry cleaners, the class of telecom cable installers, the class of clothing manufacturers, etc.). There is a national database of premium vs. losses data maintained for reference by all insurance companies. That little fraudulent claim becomes part of the loss experience in the national database… so not only does that one insurance company raise its rate for the next year, ALL insurance companies potentially will do so.</p>
<p>Bottom line is that cheaters hurt every person who owns stock in, or is insured, period. The same can be said for cheaters on college applications, in class, or on standardized tests. That cheater’s performance, if higher than a legitimate person’s score, pushes the curve up and hurts everyone under it.</p>
<p>Cheaters hurt… me! I applaud those who try to root out cheating because it helps everyone.</p>
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<p>You don’t believe this. No one can reasonably believe this.</p>
<p>I do believe that. Anyone who lets cheaters slide is allowing unethical behavior to go on, possibly because should they themselves decide to cheat, they’ll be more likely to get away with it.</p>
<p>What does it mean to “let cheaters slide”? Maybe I misunderstand your point. </p>
<p>It is very common in high school for students to see other students cheating on tests. Are you suggesting that it is “virtually as unethical” for someone not to report such behavior, as it is to engage in that behavior? </p>
<p>In that case, anyone who doesn’t want to do what you ethically required should stop attending school? Wouldn’t that follow logically? Since the only fool-proof way not to know that other people are cheating is to not attend school at all. A lot of students might not want to put themselves literally in harm’s way by reporting cheating every time they witnessed it. So they should just stop attending school. </p>
<p>I can understand having some kind of honor code at a school that adults choose to attend, where you could argue such an ethical burden might apply. But to suggest that every child is ethically required to police every other child in school is, quite simply, absurd.</p>
<p>A lot of honor codes refer to covering for cheaters as much as to cheating itself.</p>
<p>You cannot by fiat create an ethical requirement for someone to police someone else. A child simply attending a school does not take on the ethical burden to police other students. You could make a rule like that at a school, but it wouldn’t be an ethical burden.</p>
<p>"t is very common in high school for students to see other students cheating on tests. Are you suggesting that it is “virtually as unethical” for someone not to report such behavior, as it is to engage in that behavior? "</p>
<p>Yes. Cheating commonly occurs in places where people choose to close their eyes to cheating. Ignoring cheating is like saying that it’s fine.</p>
<p>It is not common or normal to see people cheating in high school. For instance, I don’t remember ever seeing people cheat in my high school, college or grad school.</p>
<p>And, yes, where there are honor codes, people are required to turn in cheaters or face the same consquences that the cheaters do.</p>
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<p>No, ignoring cheating is called choosing not to police others. There are people in high schools that are supposed to police students. They are called teachers. It is not the responsibility of high school students to police other students, not even if you create a rule that says otherwise.</p>
<p>kenf1234, ignoring cheating is self-defeating. It is in my interest to play on a level field in school, work, sports, etc. If I observe someone tilting the field on me, why would I not want to get the field rebalanced?</p>
<p>I may choose to not report it for some benevolent reason, or because of fear or reprisal, even though I know it hurts me and other non-cheaters around me. But I hope I would have the courage to report it.</p>
<p>DunninLA, what can I tell you. In practice, you’re almost always better off minding your own business and focusing on doing the best you can, rather than worrying about what other people are doing.</p>
<p>It’s not that I am going to waste time keeping an eye out for cheaters. It’s just that if I see blatant cheating, and I can provide proof in some form, and I know who was involved, I have no reason NOT to turn them in. Why should I condone cheating even if it doesn’t affect me directly?</p>