The Yale chart shows how their baseline is AP FL, their distinction being between having a 5 or not. And of course they take into account students who took less or want to start a brand new language but their focus is on the AP FL students bc they’re the majority of kids admitted to Yale.
College intermediate = AP = B1 on CECR scale, threshold level/autonomous user - meaning you can recompose bits you know to create new sentences, figure out meaning from context when you’re reading, understand more than “food, festivals, monuments,& capitals” but can analyze cultural differences. Many strong colleges have an Intermediate requirement because it means the student can travel or start a structured study abroad program with that language. Tufts has the most I’ve seen, I think it’s equivalent to B1+3. There are 2 levels in Intermediate College FL.
Many colleges stick to Elementary/A2 which depending on the HS could be equivalent to level 3 or 4, but with college courses involving a lot more cultural knowledge and analysis.
Calculus is not required at W&M, however a math pr Quantitative Reasoning course is.
Isn’t there a distinction between what a college requires at entry, and what they require of you to graduate from their program? Most schools have placement tests, and required language courses if you do not place out - no?
I don’t care about - in this context - what is required of her while she’s there, but am concerned about her being shunted to the next pile because she only has through French 3 (but 2 years’ coursework in school). We are considered scheduling a DE intermediate course for second semster senior year, to show we “get it” and that we need to have the four years’ of coursework. . . my daughter also does work on her own in this space (because she loves it and wants to) through Duolingo so it’s possible she could place into a higher level than the intermediate. . . . just don’t know. Hate doing things just to do them, but don’t want her blocked from consideration over a bright line rule she’s on the wrong side of…
There is quite a bit of this in college for meeting gen eds or prereqs for a major, or getting along in a dorm, or training for a campus job.
Other posters are offering a reality check -for the colleges with lowest admission rates, the applicant pool typically has the highest levels of rigor in their high school.
The college advisors at our private school always tell the kids to take 4 years of foreign language if they are planning to apply to highly selective schools. Most colleges have recommendations rather than strict requirements for admission. So if Yale for example recommends 4 years of high school foreign language, an applicant who has taken less may be at a disadvantage.
Yes, there is. There’s the minimum, what they expect at entry, and what you need to graduate.
There are varying systems -at Penn State if you reached HS Level, you’re automatically placed in Fr2 or Fr3.
At other universities you take a placement test.
Having only through French 3 as a Humanities applicant is going to be a problem at all highly selective colleges (even STEM applicants are recommended to go through level 4) so if you can schedule a DE intermediate 1 or 2 class (201?202?) in the Spring it’d be best - she could list it on her commonapp planned schedule for Spring so it’d count for rigor. She will need to take the placement test to see what class she qualifies for; do check the class is offered in the Spring (at some colleges it’s only offered in the Fall).
For Yale, expectation is Level 5/AP, minimum required 4, unless the school doesn’t offer the class (hence “recommended” = a kid who had no choice but to stop at level 3 will not be penalized but a kid who could go further and chose not to, will be.)
So many great colleges who would love her just the way she is.
Just putting that out there- again-- before you pile on a DE language class-- which will make for a pretty stressful second semester, no? Just when everyone else is pulling back a little…
I don’t think there are any “bright lines” btw… that’s the meaning of holistic admissions in this context. The adcoms review the transcript, the application, etc. in its totality. Finding a fit school isn’t just about “do I want to tell people I got into Yale”. It’s also about finding a place which loves you-- warts and all- and is prepared to help you become the adult/intellectual/successful human you were meant to be.
I’m starting to understand the perfectionism/anxiety a little better btw…
Agree with you, plenty of colleges will love to have this student and provide supports. Agree about Colleges that Change Lives, for likely admits and possibly great fit.
@arewethereyet.24 If still looking at American, check out St John’s in Annapolis, or Goucher in Baltimore.
She’s clearly a terrific kid. LOTS of colleges would love to have her and some would even show that with scholarships.
She will find plenty of intellectually curious students at Wooster, Agnes Scott, Kalamazoo, or Wheaton MA (I already mentioned StOlaf, I think Denison has also been mentioned upthread) -without added stress or extra courses.
So, is it worth it? The added classes, added stress, anxiety, the rejections 95% of the time?
Sounds like so far she’s said yes.
But you might want to revisit - considering that if I understand correctly she doesn’t have a draft for her CommonApp and hasn’t started on her supplements. Are stress and perfectionism paralyzing her? Would lowering the stakes help?
She should definitely be applying to Yale (or Northwestern ???) if she’s targeted this university for so long… But are the related actions bearable to her?
Could reducing the number of reaches, pushing them to RD, and focusing on her 1st choice+ EA Colleges (including Pitt, a couple colleges she doesn’t care about as a way to iron out the wrinkles, and a few CTCL colleges) refocus her a bit&lower the stress?
I guess that if she isn’t admitted to her SCEA/REA/ED choice and is fine adding a few CTCL colleges, she can always drop a 2nd semester DE class to make her Spring easier, especially since Spring is Tennis season (right?)
Just another plug for Goucher, already mentioned and recommended above.
The kids we know who are there/have gone there? Just the nicest, kindest, most supportive kids. What sounds like fantastic academic, medical, mental health support; great study abroad options; seems like the right distance from home for the OP’s D.
It also seems like the faculty there really, really want to be teaching undergrads! Nobody is phoning it in until Berkeley calls.
This part makes me think she is an empath, as austennut was getting at in one of her posts. If your D has that awareness, that could be an essay topic for sure, and one that doesn’t touch on mental health. Having big feelings, learning how to protect herself from them, being sensitive to the moods of others, etc., could all be fleshed out in her writing.
Myos suggested writing about her love of reading too, which could also be part of the essay as a love of reading is common for empaths…because they can so easily transport themselves into the various worlds they are reading about, and feel and understand the emotions of the characters. Just an idea that could work for her. I also second any of the college essay guy brainstorming exercises, whether on his website or his youtube videos.
For us at WM, it would be preferred that at least 4 credits of foreign language be completed in high school. If you have that, it satisfies the foreign language graduation requirement. Otherwise, you take more in college until you complete the intermediate level. My son only had two credits at graduation, so he has to take a semester at the intermediate level to satisfy the requirement. Not having the four credits in high school isn’t an automatic rejection. But the more the better.
Agree on Goucher but I like Clark, St.Olaf and Wooster for a music person (not a BM candidate).
Discussion on rigor is helpful but again in our experience, if she is talented and spends time on vocal performance, that is often understood and valued by top schools and may in some cases override rigor requirements. I have no idea about her talent and limited info on her experience but Interlochen is pretty selective.
I agree wrt bending traditional rigor for a spiky kid, but for a future would-be Humanities major at a highly selective college, stopping FL sophomore year would certainly raise eyebrows.
She would be expected to be enthusiastic at the idea of discovering how language structures compare, curious about the people’s history, school system (etc), can’t wait to be able to read short pieces of literature… and to go beyond the typical basics of HS 1-3. So adcoms would certainly wonder. Again -this, due to her aiming for Yale,W&M, etc. - different kettle of fish if aiming for Goucher.
I love Clark, Wooster and St. Olaf too… just commenting on the Goucher recommendation above which I don’t think has made it to the OP’s list of “places near us to check out”.
And I still maintain that holistic means holistic. For many kids, that means the route to Calc BC senior year or beyond. For many kids that means AP language plus all the lab sciences and A’s in everything. But Adcom’s reserve the right to build the class they want!
I would never recommend a “shoot the moon” approach across the board. Too hard to handle a stack of rejections even for the most secure/balanced kids. But take the shot at Yale? For sure. And then have a nice, edited list of Clark, Goucher, Smith, Conn College, BU, UVA, U Mass Amherst, Vassar, Rochester. And U Penn to scratch that itch.
There will be some nice acceptances here-- and not so many rejections. But I am not the OP or the OP’s D. Perhaps the OP will come back and explain the logic behind the outliers-- St. Andrews, Edinburgh, Wisconsin, Lehigh, Emerson, etc…
Just an update on FL because it has become a subthread of sorts. She had two years of FL where she was in charge of teaching herself because 9th was virtual and 10th her schedule conflicted (her school doesn’t encourage/permit AP classes until 11th but she wanted to take AP Lang, knowing it would impact higher level writing ability - but doing so conflicted her out of French III). So no teacher at all in 10th - just on her own - having signficant health issues, and pouring energy into core classes where teachers were phsycially present and holding her accountable. That was her C+ in French III (and I would add that she had an A in it all semester but bombed the final, by providing literally correct but nonexpansive responses to free response questions in a take home open book test - and was severely punished for it). All of this year she has used Duolingo to work on French. On her own and for no reason but that she wants to. So I think that’s “explainable,” but I also hear you all. So we are now registered for the only language we can schedule this coming semester, which is Italian 101 DE. Based on how that goes, she will schedule Intermediate French DE for the Spring semester as well. I will add that as a student of opera, foreign language is really necessary (she has many italian and french pieces in repetoire) so she has her own reasons for achieving in these languages.
Another vote for St. Olaf. Recently took a tour and S24 was not interested but I was extremely impressed at the nonmajor music opportunities- including merit scholarships for nonmajors, regular international tours etc. Academically seemed solid and very supportive. I’d be very happy for my kids to go there. In addition, I know a bit about Lawrence through a family member almunus and I think it is an underrated fit for music + liberal arts.
My wife and I were actually music major and minor, respectively, at Northwestern. I am not so sure about the classical voice opportunities for nonmajors there - I suspect they may be limited.
We also did a tour of Ithaca and it seems like a decent choice if the opportunity to take a number of classes at Cornell would give a bjt if academic/intellectual bump to the education.
Italian 101 is not going to help and will add tremendous stress to her schedule - a college 1st semester language class typically covers 2 years of HS language in 4 months. It often requirss 2-3 hours of hw for each session. And it wouldn’t even help bc colleges want to see the level achieved - some colleges helpfully explain “4 years in 1 language, not 4 times Level 1 in 4 different languages”.
The point is to reach a level beyond building blocks - understanding the culture, being able to function in that language and make comparisons with English. The Intermediate Spring course will serve the purpose of showing she is intellectually curious and can handle languages through the minimum expected.
In the CommonApp box where you can “add things”, she can mention that due to her focus on voice, she has kept up with French and is independently taking Italian through Duolingo.
Finally, include all the information you provided here (^) on her bragsheet to her GC so that the GC doesn’t fail to mention it, from the scheduling conflict to the distance learning challenge -it’ll go a long way twds “providing context”.
^