I’m looking for opinions from those in the know about careers that combine both Math and Chem. A little background: D started this past freshman year thinking Math/Bio, hated her Bio class and so started thinking Math/Chem. She got an A in Chem the first semester (an A in Bio too but didn’t like the class) and is in OrgChem1 this semester, which she is again planning to get an A. She was also hand-picked by the head chem prof to work with him this summer on a Quantum Mechanics research project.
So, time to pick classes for Fall 2017. She has spent weeks trying to figure out what she wants. She had some anxiety issues before the OrgChem midterm but pulled a 94 and things calmed down a bit. She has another exam on Monday and the anxiety is getting high again. We talked a few nights ago about the anxiety and what is causing it. She knows she can get an A in Org but in her words “I really don’t like the labs and the chem requirements all include labs, and its really, really hard. Its taking up every minute I have and there’s no time for a social life”. Together we came up with a plan for her to take CS instead of Org2 in the fall to see if she might like that. According to the summer research prof, the majority of her role is going to be CS and learning a particular language (a different one than is taught in CS1 apparently). Our thinking is that she’ll get good exposure to CS between the summer project and a semester class and then can make a better decision in what direction she’ll go in her 4th semester. All was good at the end of the discussion, she texted me her schedule and was really happy about it.
Fast forward two hours and I get the call…she had a conversation with her Org prof and he was really upset with her that she had not signed up for Org2. According to her he said “you’re a freshman and you have no idea what you really want and that a Math/Chem double might open up doors you can only imagine” and continued to ask her questions like “how many graduate programs are free for Math majors? Do you know the career opportunities if you mix Chem with Math?” She left his office in tears, she felt he was bordering angry. He also told her he couldn’t guarantee her a spot in Org2 if she didn’t take the classes concurrently. He also made a comment about how she will have fulfilled all requirements for her Math major at the end of her sophomore year and didn’t feel that was necessary.
She said she feels like a quitter and that everyone thinks (and in her words, maybe they are right) she doesn’t want such a hard semester coming up. I told her to stop caring what everyone else might or might not be thinking. FWIW, she will be taking two advanced math classes, intro to CS, a humanities class, a one credit Math/problem solving honors class, a 2 credit chem research class, and working at the coffee shop. Certainly not slacking.
Is there any credence to what this chem prof is saying. Will not taking Org2 this coming semester really make a big difference in the end? I think she can always backtrack or maybe change tracks again to something entirely different. What are the likely career paths for someone with a Math/Chem double major?
My thoughts are that the reaction is to a chemistry major not taking a foundational chem sequence class. Core in major classes are not ones that should be opted out of. I can understand the perspective of that professor if she is maintaining the possibility of majoring in chem. I think he has a point based on the courses listed. She could easily drop a math and even the 2 hr chem research class in order to take organic 2.
Those 1st 4 semester sequence courses in all majors tend to be pretty vital for upper sequence courses. I think she will find 2 even harder to get back into if she doesn’t take it next semester.
Now if she doesn’t want to major in chem, that is a completely different matter. And yes, students in math do go to grad school for free. Math majors also have plenty of paths they can follow. I also think she can certainly tell if she doesn’t want to continue with chem as a major.
She needs to check the catalog of the school to see whether the organic chemistry 2 course is critical in the prerequisite sequencing to graduate on time with a major in chemistry. If so, she needs to figure out when the latest she can take it is (paying attention to the possibility of some courses not being offered every semester) if she still wants to graduate on time with a major in chemistry. Of course, if the chemistry faculty are that unfriendly, maybe she does not want to major in chemistry.
In terms of job and career prospects, math or CS generally tends to be better than chemistry. PhD programs in any of these subjects should be funded. Combining math (and physics) with chemistry to solve design problems is usually chemical engineering, but she would want to complete an ABET accredited chemical engineering major for that.
I got a bachelor’s degree in chemistry and worked almost 30 years as a chemist. I never came across the idea that a major in math in conjunction with chemistry creates additional job opportunities in chemistry. However, I suppose it may help one get into graduate programs, and it may make one able to solve more chemistry problems.
Perhaps your daughter wants to move away from chemistry. Having a lot of anxiety about beginning OChem exams and really disliking labs doesn’t look like a fit with the major.
At the current time, the number of expected jobs is MUCH greater for CS than it is for chemistry The Bureau of Labor Statistics predicts 48 times more openings for computer occupations (not counting hardware engineers) than for chemists during 2014-2024, while the National Science Foundation (http://ncsesdata.nsf.gov/recentgrads/2010/html/RCG2010_DST1_1.html) shows about three times more computer/ information sciences bachelor’s degrees conferred than chemistry bachelor’s degrees during 2008-2009. (For some reason I don’t know, they stopped doing surveys of recent graduates after that.) https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d14/tables/dt14_322.10.asp?current=yes shows the number of computer and information sciences degrees conferred rising about 35% between 2009 and 2013. So, the expected ratio of CS opportunities to CS graduates VASTLY exceeds that for chemistry opportunities to chemistry graduates.
This leads me to think that if your daughter got a degree in CS (or even math), she would work in CS, irrespective of whether she also went through whatever it takes to get a degree in chemistry. If she doesn’t love doing the chemistry major, I don’t see the point of her doing it.
It should not be presumed that college professors know much about employment markets outside of academia. Why would they?
In my experience, knowledge about business/organizational management and managing people does help a chemist’s career a lot - much more than doing math beyond what a chemistry major requires.
In most STEM majors you can’t just skip one of the core classes. The math classes will only get harder from here as will the chem classes. A double major in chem and math isn’t really something to be taken lightly, and oftentimes will not leave much time for social life. It’s up to your daughter to chose if she wants to take the semester to explore new options in her academics.
The professor in question probably got inappropriately angry - there’s really no reason for a professor to get angry about the way a freshman decides to organize her classes. But the underlying kernel might be the organization of the chem sequence at her school.
It sounds like your daughter might be wavering about whether she wants to major in chemistry, or math, or maybe computer science, and maybe two of those fields. That’s fine - she’s supposed to explore and figure stuff out now. And if she’s not sure that she wants to be a chemistry major and wants to explore the possibility of taking computer science next semester instead, that’s totally fine. I think it’s the rare school that wouldn’t allow her to simply take organic chem 2 in the spring of 2017 rather than fall 2016. It’s possible that this school is really like that, but I’d check with the student handbook/course catalog and maybe the registrar or something to be sure.
One of the key skills a student can learn in college is to become assertive and stand up for her own interests. She might be making a mistake by not taking organic chem 2 next semester - but it is HER mistake to make, if she wants to. Checking the course catalog will let her see how far behind in her chem major she’ll be if she doesn’t take Org2 next semester, and whether that’s a prerequisite for pretty much everything else in chem. Talking with the appropriate people will let her know whether she really will have trouble registering for Org2 in spring 2017 if she decides to delay by a semester. Given that most people don’t take organic chem until their sophomore year I get the feeling she’ll be fine, unless I’m a bit confused about the sequencing. As long as she’s prepared for whatever consequences may come by exploring or going off the beaten path a bit, she’ll be okay.
Tell her, also, that there is nothing wrong with quitting and nothing wrong with not making things unnecessarily hard on oneself.
Thanks everyone for your input. She had her Org2 exam last night and I’m sure we’ll be talking sometime today.
@existential12, she will complete the requirements for the Math major by the end of her sophomore year so that’s not an issue. She has checked the sequence for the Chem major and she can easily fill the requirements if she puts off just the one semester but she could put it off as much as two semesters and still make it work.
@juillet, she is wavering about what she wants her 2nd major to be and I thought (and recommended to her) she should explore her interests in CS this coming semester. She has also looked at the requirements for the dual engineering programs offered through various schools which require physics. Another interest is actuarial science and that would require some business classes. Honestly, she is all over the place but isn’t that what the liberal arts colleges are for? Academically, once she picks what she wants, there is no question she can succeed.
I honestly think the summer research project and this upcoming semester will give her the time and experience to become more focused on the second major. She could also use the down time to work on the social aspects of college and forge more friendships, while at the same time decreasing the anxiety she has felt this first year.
Again, thanks all.