math vs physics undergrad?(then PhD)

Graduate School
1

<p>i have decided i may want to pursue a PhD for physics when i graduate college.</p>

<p>I have not started college yet and am having problems determining if it would be better to major in math or physics.</p>

<p>the way i see things is that math would give me a better foundation for physics and would be beneficial to have such a good understanding of the underlying math.</p>

<p>but then again i may be at a huge disadvantage having fewer physics classes in college than my peers and i cant see many chances for research in the field of math.</p>

<p>as of now i am also going to double major in philosophy if that matters</p>

<p>also exactly how competitive are PhD programs at places like MIT.
obviously theyre very competitive but i couldnt find how many students were admitted out of how many applied.
do these schools admit a reasonable number of talented people or just a handful of future einsteins</p>

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<p>Why not just do Math and Physics?</p>

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<p>because i <3 philosophy</p>

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<p>If you want to do physics in grad school, then do physics...</p>

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<p>A mathematics degree will have you prepared for A LOT of grad programs, just be sure to take plenty of extra courses in PHYS as well (most math programs make you take a lot anyway). You will be well prepared for grad school in Physics if you take a rigourous math courseload and do well in it. </p>

<p>Places like MIT/Princeton/Stanford take take varying amounts of applicants. Some may take as few as 5 others maybe 50 graduate students. It is extremely competitive and you have to have done research and have some great recomendations. Spend all your energy in college getting the A and making good repoire with faculty. That will be key. Know the top people in your department well enough so that they would recommend you.</p>

<p>From the MIT website:</p>

<p>How many applications are submitted each year? How many students are accepted?
Although the number varies each year, the Department of Physics usually receives approximately 600 applications. The number of students in the incoming class for the last few years has averaged between 45-50.</p>

<p>From Princeton's Plasma Physics site</p>

<p>Q. How many applications do you receive?</p>

<p>A. In 1997 we considered approximately 35 applications, admitted 8 and enrolled 7.</p>

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<p>Something to think about is if they have 35 applications, 34 of which are Physics B.S. and yours is a Math B.S. with a strong physics background you will stand out (for better or for worse).</p>

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<p>hm this is all very exciting... i wish i could skip ahead a few years so i can go to grad school already ;p</p>

<p>i agree math would be the smartest choice overall and open the most doors for me but as far as a PhD for physics.... doing math makes me kind of uneasy</p>

<p>i would prefer to do math undergrad because i think the math would make me a stronger physicist(or maybe not? anyone have opinions?) but im not sure how it would affect admissions. and really id rather get into a MIT with a physics undergrad than a state U with a math undergrad. obviously were i attend grad school will have a greater correlation to my physics ability than if i did math or physics undergrad, so admissions is top priority to me.</p>

<p>if i was to do a double major with philosophy too(plus the core, if any) then im not sure i would be able to take enough physics courses. but since i havent even looked into anything resembling a schedule i really have no idea</p>

<p>???</p>

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<p>Might also depend on the type of physics you're interested in...
If say, you want to do string theory, then do math. They're all mathematicians.</p>

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<p>I have similar questions. I will be entering college this fall, and would like to know where to get the best prep for grad school in either physics or law. I got into UChicago, and UIUC, and will probably gain admission to Cornell. Any thoughts on the best route to HYPMSC Berkeley grad schools?</p>

<p>PS (HPSM are also pending, but unlikely :(</p>

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<p>Lbtg47,</p>

<p>For context, I am a current grad student in a top-10 physics program (Texas) doing relativity and QFT.</p>

<p>The double major is ideal, but if you have to pick one go with physics. Here's why:</p>

<p>1) No matter how good you are at math, you will not even have the basics of the physics education if you don't study physics. To do well enough on the Physics GRE Subject Test to get into a good program, you have to have total recall of you classical mechanics, E&M, optics, thermodynaics, relativity, and quantum. There is no time on the test (100 questions in 170 min) to derive anything. You must have it down cold. Humans learn through repetition so take the classes. I seriously doubt you will do all the required course work in your spare time. If you will take most of these physics classes as electives, then just do the double major.</p>

<p>2) Another big factor in grad admissions is research experience. How will you get to know about physics professors' research, let alone learn enough physics to make you useful to them, if you don't take their classes? As an undergrad at a big school, I never ran into a single non-physics major doing research in the physics dept. And if you don't do undergrad research in physics, kiss your chances at a top grad program goodbye (seriously).</p>

<p>3) The third main factor in admissions is Letters of Reference. How do you plan to get to know multiple physics profs well enough to get 3 (or 4) outstanding letters? Just getting an A in a physics elective is not nearly enough. You need to take multiple classes from them and do reasearch with them. Get to know them personally. Even if you have great recs from a math prof, if the profs (sometimes even senior grad students) on the admissions committee have never heard of him/her, what weight will their letter carry?</p>

<p>4) At most schools, a physics major already contains a heavy minor in math. You'll have to take calculus, diff eq, and linear algebra for physics anyway and will be encouraged to take one or more courses in analysis (complex and real), algebra, topology, geometry, numerical analysis, PDEs, etc. You also will need to learn a few programming languages (most likely on your own) as part of your undergrad physics research. Like it or not, a physics degree is already at least 1.5 majors. Since it will put you within 2-3 math classes of a double major, just do both.</p>

<p>Being in theoretical physics, I spend a lot of time in our math department (in the same bldg here :-). I see many more grad students in the math department that were only physics majors than vice-versa.</p>

<p>I don't know what "because i <3 philosophy" means, but more than 2 majors is possible. I got 4 separate Bachelors degrees simultaneously (physics, math, econ, Russian) from a large state U with plenty of "requirements" to satisfy - it can be done. Just start planning ahead and prepare to work your tail off.</p>

<p>Edit:
String theory is done by some mathematicians, but those at the forefront are largely on the physics side. This is likely to continue because researchers are still trying to come up with a single prediction unique to string theory that can be tested experimentally. Without at least a basic knowledge of experimental physics from which to design experiments showing its merit, string theory will remain a beutiful piece of mathematics with no connection to the physics universe.</p>

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<p>Wow, thanks for the info! In what you have seen, what is the difficutly comparison of getting into a top 10 grad school? I know USNWR top 10 undergrad college is incredibly difficult to do. Of these colleges, which is the best for grad school placement, i.e., where can I get the best connections and the most research. Harvard, Stanford, Cornell, Princeton, University of Chicago, University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign, MIT? </p>

<p>My last question involves your QUADRUPLE major! Did you enter with a lot of credit already? How much math did you have? I am worrying a little now because I am in Calc, but won't have Diff Eq, PDE, etc down, and Chicago's Honor's Physics assumes that one should know these fairly well. Also, how important is GPA? MIT and Chicago are famous for deflating grades, and to try and double/triple major w/research would be difficult.</p>

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<p>jerew,</p>

<p>Disclaimer: Take all of this for what it's worth (you decide) and what you paid for it (nothing.)</p>

<p>To begin with, I was not (nor am I now) a physics/math stud. I just like the subjects and work hard. Trite and a little corny, but true.</p>

<p>About me:
I went to high school (actually dropped out, but that's a different story) in a tiny town with no AP classes, but took Calc I at a community college the summer before starting school at a large public Tier 1/Research 1 Univ. My first year I took Calc 2 & 3 and Diff Eq. My 2nd year I took Linear Alg., Number Theory, Abstract Algebra, Adv. Calc. (this year SUCKED!! Straight A's, but I was so caught up in getting the farthest the fastest that I didn't really savor or retain what I was learning). My third year I took complex analysis and a required mathematical statistics class. My fourth year I took differential geometry.
As for the 4 majors, the math and physics have so much overlap that it's only like 1.5 degrees. I took all of my social science electives in economics and all humanities electives in Russian, so it wasn't really as hard as it sounds. Obviously the math and physics satisfied the science reqs for econ and Russian. The biggest thing was that I went to school year round. From that summer I took Calc I, I was enrolled for 12 consecutive semester of non-stop schooling inculding summers (I took 5 years). That took it's toll on my motivation and I would not recommend it.</p>

<p>My opinions about undergrad institutions: If you can get into any of the fine programs you mentioned, great - you should go. But if you 1) don't get in 2) get into only one or two that you aren't that excited about or 3) get in but have to take out massive loans, then don't rule out a solid public U. Having known many, many folks from "elite" programs for years, some things that people don't think about are:</p>

<ul>
<li><p>These schools are famous for their research and graduate programs. As an undergrad you will probably not (almost never) have too many opportunites to take advantage of these. There is a reason that many of the folks I know did REUs (Research Experience as an Undergraduate) during the summer at other universities (Texas, Michigan, Ohio State, Washington, Wisconsin are some of the best). You will almost certainly have more classes taught by graduate students than at a less prestigious school, as the elite faculty as busy doing their research that brings the school grant money. Side note: don't kid yourself, professional science is very much a business.</p></li>
<li><p>MIT and Chicago aside, the rest are (fairly or not) known for grade INFLATION! Look at what Princeton is going through now to regain some respectibility vis a vis grades. </p></li>
<li><p>Physics is probably the most standardized field left for undergrads. By that I mean that no matter where you go, you will likely take you first year of physics from Halliday & Resnick (or similar), mechanics from Marion & Thornton, E&M from Griffiths, Thermo from Reif or Kittel & Kroemer, QM from Griffiths or Shankar, math methods from Boas, etc. Master these and you're set for the academics of ANY grad program, no kidding.</p></li>
<li><p>Money. By staying in-state I not only had 100% of my education, room and board paid for, I actually made money. The total of scholarships I got exceeded the cost of my school and I got a fat check at the beginning of each semester. Coming from a very poor family, my quality of living actually went up in college! So I graduated with no debt hanging over me, actually saved (gasp!) a small nest egg, and still studied the exact same courses and texts as my contemporaries at MIT! Now we're at the same grad institutions I sometimes feel like "joke's on them" since I can buy a home as a grad student and a disturbing number of them have debt well over $100,000.</p></li>
<li><p>Prestige. Rather than be one of the rank and file at an elite institution, I was one of the standouts at my school. It was relatively easy to get into a good research group. The leader of my research group was a Princeton PhD whose thesis advisor was John Wheeler himself! That's some serious firepower for your recs. Now, I still had to work very, very hard and it's not like other students were slouches, but I imagine the competition was less intense than elsewhere for award and recognition (like nominations for the Rhodes and Marshall Scholarships.)</p></li>
</ul>

<p>If you live in California, Wisconsin, Illinois, Michigan, or maybe a few others, I would very seriously consider staying in-state and going to a public research univ.</p>

<p>Advice/Random thoughts:</p>

<p>-You are not behind in math at all. Truth be told, you can probably finish most undergrad physics progs. with no more than Diff Eq. (assuming you have no plans to go on).</p>

<p>-When you start college, talk to your advior about retaking the last math class you took in high school (sounds like you're at about multi-variable calc, no?). College is just different. As a longtime TA/instructor I've seen so many great students bite off too much their first semester, and suffer because of it. Remember it's not a race, or competition. It's about who UNDERSTANDS it the best.</p>

<p>-Calc 3 and Linear Algebra are the two most valuable classes you will ever take if you are interested in physics. Almost everything else builds on these classes.</p>

<p>-Actually read the textbook. There is so much valuable info that I missed just because I was able to absorb enough info from lectures to get straight A's. I was too concerned with grades and not concerned enough with knowledge.</p>

<p>-When you make the transition in math classes from calculation-based classes (Calc, Stat, Diff Eq, Lin. Alg., etc.) to proof-based classes (usually your first semester of Adv. Calce. aka Real Analysis), take a light load that semester. THIS is when you really start to see what it's all about. And it's a totally different way of doing things.</p>

<p>Regarding getting into a top 10 physics prog - it's a crapshoot (exact rankings really don't mean that much - think more in broad bands of 20 or so.) Figure each department takes an average of 40 students/year (and that's a high estimate) you can see why every single year there are 4.0 ivy league double-majors with good recs and research that don't crack the top 10. It's truly random - nobody can honestly say that any top 10 grad prog is a safety. Remember you are competing for slots with mostly international students now and Chinese and Indian students in particular are very, very well educated. </p>

<p>Anecdote: good friend of mine decided to go to Dartmouth for physics PhD (and going by rankings, Dartmouth really sucks). In his research area, though, there are 2 profs there that are extremely visible in their sub-discipline. He graduated in 5 years and got a faculty position right away (no post-doc!) at a top-10 school.</p>

<p>Best of luck - let me know if you have any specific qustions.</p>

<p>AT</p>

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<p>Wow, you had a lot of good comments. Yeah, I got into UIUC and Chicago. The way I look at it, I will have a lot of debt no matter what I do. UIUC is out of state, and they will give me little money. Chicago is 40k, but I may get some financial aid. I figure that I will get research experience at Chicago or Princeton probably the most, simply because of the bachelor's thesis. Also, Chicago has a student/faculty ratio of 4:1! I've heard a lot of really great things about their focus on undergrads. </p>

<p>That being said, I was probably mistaken that grad school is a littler easier to get into than undergrad. However, I do know that it is much easier to pay for. When did you start your REU? I was looking at them too. My final question involves getting a head start. Are there any programs for that summer between high school and college that would help? When should I start research with my school? I figure I have an 70% chance of Chicago, 10% Cornell, 10% UIUC, and 10% the rest.</p>

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<p>Hey,</p>

<p>I'm an Applied Physics undergrad at Cornell and I'm going to a PhD program in physical chemistry next year so hopefully some of the things I say will make sense.</p>

<p>Chicago, UIUC, Cornell, and all those other schools have stellar physics programs. I'm not sure how much personal attention you'll get at whichever school you go to. Your advanced physics undergrad courses will be small so you'll probably get to know your professors in most schools. Professors in those departments will have contacts with professors in other top departments. This is an invaluable asset that you should keep in mind when you reach your jr and sr years.</p>

<p>As far as research goes, don't worry about that until at least your 2nd year. You won't have the necessary physics background to truly appreciate or understand whatever work you do. It also might take a year or two to settle down and choose a major. Who knows? You might end up doing something totally different. Most of us went through that process (God knows I did). REUs are great programs. Most people, myself included, did an REU in the summer before their senior year. Some do them right before their junior year. Unless you're an advanced student, you usually won't have the necessary technical background to get a lot out of research so early in your undergrad. I'm not trying to discourage you by any means. I'm just telling you from my own perspective and experiences.</p>

<p>As far as this summer goes - enjoy it :) Go to college with a fresh and clear mind and don't try to plan 4 years ahead. Good luck with your admissions decisions.</p>

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<p>jerew; that 4:1 rato you read about in usnews is skewed</p>

<p>uchicago and a handful of other school were kind enough to include their medical faculty in the report. cornell had a paper on this. when the med faculty is removed the ratios of top colleges are much more similar</p>

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<p>Yeah, I figured some of the ratio was skewed. Is there anyway to find out what it really is?</p>

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<p>someone in another thread said that cornell had done a study that found more "accurate" ratios.</p>

<p>a quick google search didnt reveal anything for me. maybe you could try searching CC to find the post im talking about and PM the poster for a link to the study.</p>

<p>since it was done by cornell though it will probably just be skewed somehow negatively for colleges that compete with cornell.</p>

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<p>Wow, very cool. Astraltourist, you're a great resource. I'm pretty passionate about physics, and I'm pretty sure I want to get a PhD and teach. I've got some questions for Astraltourist and anyone else on the board.</p>

<p>1) About the majors- I was thinking about double majoring in physics and english (english because I'm thinking about doing science writing- I'm almost as strong in english as I am in physics, and don't want to deemphasize it in college). Also, my MIT interviewer suggested that I major in engineering and take physics elective classes, so I'll have something marketable to fall back upon and be able to have more options for jobs in college.</p>

<p>2) I'm probably going to Rice next fall; how well known is its physics department? If I get accepted to MIT or Stanford, should I go there (even though I like Rice slightly more and it's close to home)?</p>

<p>3) What advice do you have for someone who could be a little stronger in math? I'm very good at the sciences, especially the mathematical ones (I'm the top student in my AP chemistry and physics classes at a fairly competitive high school). However, I've had a mental block against math, in fact, it used to be my worst subject- I got B's in high school geometry and algebra II (and otherwise straight A's). I'm much better at math now (780 on SAT I math, 800 on SAT II Math IIC, and 800 on physics SAT II), but it doesn't come naturally yet- there are better students than me in my calc BC class- but I'm willing to work hard, and I'm sure I can push past my mathematical difficulties. Do you see me running into difficulties at the graduate level (taking into consideration that I'm a good test taker- SAT's aren't the best measure of my ability)? Are certain areas of physics more math intensive than others?</p>

<p>4) Is there any hope of getting a physics internship this summer (as a graduating high school senior)? Could I expect to make any money (even minimum wage)? How could I go about getting one?</p>

<p>Thanks in advance to anyone who can help me- I really appreciate it.</p>

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<p>Good questions! I have the same scores as you and am very worried about being thrown into a competitive college and falling behind. However, I did hear that at Chicago, it is incredibly easy to get research positions. Just a thought, as that is a factor for anyone in the undergraduate sciences. (It is apparently essential to getting into a top graduate school!)</p>

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<p>I heard that 3/4ths of all Rice graduates are accepted into their first choice graduate school, which sounds very cool, because I'm sure Rice graduates apply to all the hardest graduate schools.</p>