math vs physics undergrad?(then PhD)

<p>1) You'll be spending a lot of time on your physics classes. Double majoring in English would leave you with no time to take technical elective courses or, more importantly, on research. Considering there are no overlaps whatsoever with English, I don't see how you would have time to do anything, especially at a good like Rice. If you are interested in English, then take English classes for fun. Majoring in it won't really serve much of a professional purpose.</p>

<p>I would have to disagree with your MIT interviewer. I would suggest majoring in Physics and taking elective courses (minor, double major?) in an engineering field if you are worried about making yourself marketable for employment. If you graduate with a Physics degree, you can go into engineering easily. All it takes is another 1 to 2 years to pursue an M.Eng. You can't go from Engineering to Physics, however.</p>

<p>2) Rice is a good physics school. MIT will be ultra-competitive and it's ultra-stressful. I also have many reservations about the atmosphere and administration there and personally, it would not be a good fit for me. But that's me - who knows, you might love it there. That's something you would have to seriously consider should you be fortunate enough to get accepted there. I don't much about Stanford, but I heard it's laid back there. In the end, you'll end up getting a good physics education no matter which school you go to. If you are interested in grad school, something you should find out is how easy it is for ugrads to do research. At some schools, it's difficult and profs don't like pesky ugrads while at some schools it's very encouraged.</p>

<p>3) Work hard at math. At the more advanced level, math and science go hand in hand. Just put time into it and you should be okay. Quantum physics is basically all math. The science of it falls out of the math.</p>

<p>4) Even if you found some type of internship this summer, I recommend relaxing and having fun. You'll be doing enough work once school starts. Also, you won't really get much from the experience. High school physics is nothing. Once you have a more advanced/better understanding of physics, you'll find research and internships to be much more rewarding.</p>

<p>Thanks, shizz. I agree that MIT would be a bear- it sounds like a slave labor camp, and I bet the social life is great (I mean, I'm sure it would be okay, but not anything near like a regular college). About the internship, I tend to waste most of my free time, so I think a good internship would be fun- and I'm going to have to shell out half of my 32,000 (and rising) Rice tuition. I have a possible internship through a friend whose uncle owns an engineering company (yay nepotism) at $10 hour.</p>

<p>So, do you recommend a engineering double major (I'm not exactly sure what you meant)?</p>

<p>Is experimental physics less abstract mathematics? (I mean, I by no means dislike math and I'm good at it, but I think I should go into a field I'm best suited for).</p>

<p>Oh, and by the way- are you a graduate student, shizz?</p>

<p>Thanks for your time.</p>

<p>An engineering internship would be a great way to see what the daily life of an engineer would be like. Just don't expect to really learn too much. Most of it will go over your head and it will only make sense once you hit junior year and you actually learn the material in a class. Plus it's great money. Money is never a bad thing :)</p>

<p>I've heard mixed things about MIT. Only listen to first-hand experience and never to stereotypes, so take my words about MIT with a grain of salt.</p>

<p>You can major in Physics and minor in an engineering field if you are intersted in that particular engineering field. A double major would be very ambitious but doable if you can sacrifice the time. </p>

<p>At the undergrad level, everything is theoretical. After all, you will be there to learn the basics. Don't be worried too much if you don't like the math. If you are the tops in your Physics and Chem classes, that means you know more math than you think you do. Just remember that math is a tool used by physicists. You don't have to love it, but make sure you're competent with using it.</p>

<p>I'm actually a senior in Applied Physics going to graduate school next year. Feel free to PM me with questions about stuff if you don't feel like posting it here. Good luck with your admissions :)</p>

<p>Thanks again for the advice, although I just want you to clear up one statement.
In "Engineering Physics" under the Cornell Univesity forum, you stated that,</p>

<p>"Both programs prepare you well for grad school, but a lot depends on what you want to do after getting your bachelor's. Engineering Physics prepares you for both physics and engineering grad school. Physics does not prepare you too well for engineering."</p>

<p>However, in this thread you said that going from physics to engineering would be pretty easy. I'm sure you know what you mean, you have been a great help, but could you clarify somewhat? This is an expecially essential question for me as I want to go to UChicago because of its good physics, but there is no engineering program. I am determined to go to graduate school, but am uncertain if I want to be a lawyer, engineer, or physicist. I have heard before that some even consider the physics to engineering transition to be easier, perhaps even easier than going from engineering to engineering (undergrad-grad.) I love Chicago for its atmosphere, reputation, and strength in so many disciplines, but I dislike it becuase it seems, at times, too focused on books and not on technical learning, as Cornell's EP would focus on.</p>

<p>I have not gotten into Cornell yet, so I want to make sure Chicago will work, at least over my second place UI Urbana. Any advice on this? In the end, it will most likely fall between Cornell and Chicago, if I get in to Cornell. Perhaps the fact that I can transfer to EP might tip the scale. (I applied to CAS.) I just was not 100% sure that I wanted to apply to an engineering physics program, so I went CAS. </p>

<p>Any help would be greatly appreciated.</p>

<p>Perhaps I should've reworded what I said in the other thread. Physics doesn't prepare you as well for future study in Engineering as Engineering Physics does. There are some course requirements in EP (and for the Engineering school in general) that have a more traditional engineering focus to them. For example, in EP you are required to take a couple engineering technical electives as well as a required Computer Instrumentation Design course.</p>

<p>I also should have clarified what I said earlier in this thread. You can get a bachelor's in Physics and use that as a springboard for further study in engineering if you really wanted to. Let's say you wanted to get a master's in MechE. You would probably take a bunch of MechE courses before applying for your M.Eng. You can't go the other way around. If I major in MechE, I would never be able to do graduate study in Physics. It's not "easy" to graduate with a Physics degree and then follow it up with an M.Eng (Master's of Engineering - it's a terminal degree that allows you to go straight into industry after graduation), but it's doable if you put work into it.</p>

<p>edit: if you are unsure if you want to do Physics, Engineering, law, etc, then I would personally recommend Cornell over Chicago. I know I am biased in making that statement because I'm from Cornell, but when I was a senior in high school I was in a similar dilemma that you are in now. I applied to Engineering but I didn't know exactly what I wanted to study. During various points in my ugrad I switched between a ton of majors and even seriously considered switching to CAS.</p>

<p>What if I were to major in physics, but fill electives with technical courses, or do that sort of work/research in the summer?</p>

<p>That's the sort of thing I'm talking about that a physics major could do if he wanted to go into engineering. That's what a bunch of AEPers here do. I have one friend that is taking a bunch of BME courses and he plans on doing his M.Eng in BME, and another one who is doing the same thing except with CS.</p>

<p>Well, the main reason I wanted to double major is that Rice has a very lenient AP policy (if I get a 4 ot 5 on an AP test, ie, I don't bomb it, I am exempted from the class). I am probably gonna have 20 hours of credit under my belt when I graduate high school, so I'd pretty much enter Rice as a 2nd semester sophmore. As easy on the wallet is spending 3 years in college would be, college is supposedly one of the best periods in your life, and I don't want to rush it. I can deal with a little debt- I can live cheaply.</p>

<p>How does the job market look for physicists look right now? If you were able to get a PhD at a prestigious program, is getting an academic position easy enough? I'm a very ambitious person, and I think I could survive a rigorous PhD program, but exactly how difficult is it on most students?</p>

<p>There's always a job market for physicists if you do well from a respectable school. I think. To be honest with you I never seriously considered working after graduation. You can find information about that sorta thing from <a href="http://www.aip.org%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.aip.org&lt;/a> (American Institute for Physics).</p>

<p>Getting an academic position is never easy. After completing your PhD, you usually have to do 1 or 2 postdoctoral fellowships. Then you have to hope to get a professorship somewhere. Finally, at the age of 30 - 32 you get the joy of earning $40k as an Asst. Prof. at some school busting your balls off for years to get on tenure. All the while you have to apply for tons of grants while juggling teaching responsibilities with producing consistently good research. Most people that enter PhD programs want to be a professor of some sorts. It's an extremely tough and arduous process. Not only do you have to be hard working and motivated, but you have to be extremely smart to boot.</p>

<p>All of that sounds very discouraging but if you reach that end goal, it would be more than worth all the blood and tears.</p>

<p>Wow. I can hardly even imagine myself in 10 years.</p>

<p>Is that long process true of all schools or just the good ones? What if I went on to teach physics at a US News 77 Liberal Arts college? Is that as difficult?</p>

<p>How does Mudd stack up against the schools discussed here?</p>

<p>"The leader of my research group was a Princeton PhD whose thesis advisor was John Wheeler himself! That's some serious firepower for your recs. Now, I still had to work very, very hard and it's not like other students were slouches, but I imagine the competition was less intense than elsewhere for award and recognition (like nominations for the Rhodes and Marshall Scholarships.)"</p>

<p>To be fair, WHEELER is some serious firepower for recs--all of his dozens of former PhD students are not necessarily.</p>

<p>And having just gone through the Rhodes/Marshall process (for the second time), I was surprised to learn that while my private undergrad school is willing to nominate essentially anyone who has a decent GPA and is interested, my current grad school (large "top" public school) has an extensive interview and recommendation process before nominations and in fact nominate fewer than half of those who ask to be nominated. This may not be typical and did in fact surprise me, but just another datum to add to the mix.</p>

<p>Joe,</p>

<p>Good points - that's also how my undergrad school worked re Rhodes nominations. They winnowed the group to two applicants each year. Then from each state interview two were selected by the Trust for the final district interview and final selection. This was how it worked back in the late 90s.</p>

<p>To be clear, I never said or implied that all Wheeler's proteges were big guns, but mine was (and most actually are.)</p>

<p>UncleFeezus,</p>

<p>Sorry for the delay. First off, congrats on your likely matriculation at Rice. That's a fine school with a solid rep. For my two cents, I'd say:</p>

<p>1) Major in English if you want to, especially if you are thinking about science writing (you won't get any critically graded writing experience as an undergrad physics major). A journalism program might be even more appropriate, that way you can develop a portfolio of published clips you need to have when applying for a science writing job/intern. Don't know about Rice in particular but if you figure the average school requires 120 credit hrs for a BA/BS with about 40-50 in your major(s), you have plenty of time for two (or more) majors. Esp. in your case if you will be knocking out a lot of gen ed reqs with your APs. You might change your mind and not finish the second degree, but so what? Life's too short to not even try. This is a time in your life to try new things without penalty.</p>

<p>2) Re your concerns about math, just keep at it. From my experiences teaching high school students and TA'ing at college, there's no magic bullet. Get some of the Schaums guides (yeah! solutions! And they're cheap!) and do all the problems you can stand. Then do more. Repetition is the key at this level. If your textbook isn't clear, go to the library and try a different one. Analogy: I heard an old platoon leader of mine (I've taken the roundabout route to grad school :-) counsel a younger soldier on his physical fitness program. The youngin' asked how he could do more pushups. The sergeant, in his infinite wisdom, replied, "Do more pushups." :-)</p>

<p>3) Do something fun this summer - I agree 100% with Shizz. Work at a camp. Travel, if you can. Volunteer somewhere. Intern at your local paper and learn a bit about journalism. Treat yourself. You've earned it - this is a crossroads in your life. And to be blunt, you probably don't know enough math or physics to be useful yet. You have PLENTY of time for REUs and internships. Most people (me too) will tell you that you'll learn more out of the classroom than in it. It's true. This summer could be one of those "educational opportunities." Make the most of it before settling into a LONG time in school. Always remember there is a real world outside of Academia. I don't believe you can truly be an adult until you've tried it.</p>

<p>4) It seems (via PMs) that some do not take kindly to my "long, pointless" posts. My apologies. I'll try to keep them short (after this one :-), it's just that I don't cruise by this site too often and want to catch up when I do. My only goal is to offer one person's perspective who has already "been there, done that" and with some luck and the help of others did it pretty darn well, if I do say so myself. I certainly don't claim to have "all" or "the only" answers - beware of anyone who says they do. I remember how useless much of the chat room/BB traffic used to be when I was looking for solid info, and just want to offer something more solid (just as Shizz, Joe, and others do I'm sure). When I had questions, it seemed like all I could find was other HS kids rehashing rumors and giving each other unfounded advice. Some was good, some was bad, but it would have helped to have some tactical/practical pointers from an old hand. Good luck to all.</p>

<p>Thanks for the reply. The people who say your posts are pointless are stupid, or have no attention span- they're good sources of information.</p>

<p>yeah i like all of the comments, keep it up. im not so sure about the advice to the one looking at cornell. i mean vonnegut majored in science (failing mind you) and ended up a prolific writer. he said it did him better to not have english teachers confining his style, so maybe if you did the opposite (liking science and majoring in english) it would work..</p>

<p>
[quote]
You can't go the other way around. If I major in MechE, I would never be able to do graduate study in Physics.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You sure about that, shizz? If that's true, well, evidently, somebody forgot to tell that to Artan Qerushi, who has a bachelor's degree in mechanical engineering from Albania, and yet still somehow managed to get his PhD in physics from the University of Florida. Perhaps we should contact him and let him know that you can't go the other way around. </p>

<p><a href="http://fusion.ps.uci.edu/artan/artan.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://fusion.ps.uci.edu/artan/artan.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Maybe we should also tell Daniel Leslie, Executive Director at Photon Research (now part of Raytheon), who has a BS in mechE from Iowa and a PhD in physics from Michigan. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.photon.com/profile.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.photon.com/profile.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I don't know if anyone has touched upon this, but...</p>

<p>Do not get a PhD to teach (some exceptions apply.) The PhD prepares you for a life of research, not teaching.</p>

<p>Does anyone know about UVA's physics dept? I'll be going there this fall and have vague plans of attending a "top" grad school for physics...but I'm not sure of how well I'll be prepared. I know that UVA doesn't compare that well with some of the other schools i got into (uchicago, most notably), but I'm curious to see what others know about it.</p>