<p>A good article which provides a great place to demonstrate why going into medicine for $$ is a bad idea. While the article itself is more an argument against cutting physician salaries (and resident work hours) - I think the more important take home point for pre-meds should be about avoiding undergrad debt - in particular given the nature of parents/HS students who frequent this board. I’ll let someone like BDM really hone in on the numbers (if he so desires). The bottom line is, the debt load for 8 years of schooling, (assumed to be ~100k for UG, ~200k for Med School - probably an overestimation but not entirely unreasonable #'s) combined with the training requirements to practice, and it ends up that the net adjusted wage for physicians is practically the same as that for a teacher. Removing the undergrad debt (either through generous parents or scholarships) is the easiest way to tip that balance into a more favorable position.</p>
<p>Absolutely no one should incur that kinda of debt for undergrad. Heck, it is (nearly) impossible for any undergrad to borrow that kinda money without a co-signer, which then becomes parental debt. No bank will lend that amount. Only a few (rapacious) schools will provide such loans to undergrads.</p>
<p>Nationally, the average debt of college grads is ~$25k. I would guess, and it’s only a guess, that the average debt of a matriculating MS is a LOT lower. (You need $$ to participate in the required ECs.)</p>
<p>The good Dr. Brown needs to use real facts to make a point. Otherwise, nit-pickers like me roll their eyes at made up numbers.</p>
<p>I wonder how much the parents of these students have spent BEFORE these students set the foot on campus, as compared to the national average. I would be surprised if the ratio is still roughly $9,254 to $9,254+$15,000, considering the fact that these colleges, as compared to state universities, put so much more emphasis on student’s ECs in addition to their test scores, in their admission criteria.</p>
<p>I vaguely remember reading somewhere that, at SOME (not all, as the average debt of ALL private medical school students is definitely higher) seemingly more expensive medical schools, the average debt of the medical school students is actually lower than (or at least about the same as) that of those at a “cheaper” medical school. Go figure.</p>
<p>My point is: just like the fact that the admission rate to medical school of a college could be misleading, the average debt of UG and MS students could be somewhat misleading if we are not able to include other factors like how “resourceful” their families are.</p>
Plus the early admission (esp. early decision) policy. Plus more students from high-priced, non-religious prep schools (as compared to the same at typical state universities.)</p>
<p>Since the average debt of professional school students is also highly advertised, I suspect there is some motivation for the professional schools (medical school, law school, etc) to recruit students from more resourceful families.</p>
<p>I do not know how the issue could be resolved. But I am sympathetic to those UG students who recently got pepper sprayed.</p>
<p>Sorry, but still more than a bit unsympathetic towards the physician victimhood lobby. While there are outliers, by and large that profession has and is doing quite well in income, in status, in job security, and a wide variety of metrics. Everyone who’s getting into it has all on the info on the plusses and minuses before making the decision. </p>
<p>OK, there’s a lot of training to go through, but two things: 1) you know up front you have to do this, and 2) you get paid through residency and fellowship, maybe not at a rate that is comparable to a practicing doctor, but you’re not starving. So you could look at medical career as 7/8 yrs schooling after HS, 3-7 years in an entry level job (residency/fellowship), and then you’re ahead of most other careers.</p>
I think very few have only 7 yrs schooling (UG plus MS) after HS. The recent craze about building up more ECs/maturity/life experiences before application (due to the “myth”: no schools except for the very research-oriented ones prefer to take “babies” who are only good academically but lack life experiences and maturity, thus the phenomenon of a gap/glide year) makes it more like 8 or 9 years after HS. At some colleges, especially the top ones, likely slightly more than half of applicants do not apply the summer between junior and senior.</p>
<p>The same applies to other career path like academic: I heard that most newly-minted PhDs may need to “invest” some research years as postdoc in order to be a competitive applicant for any desirable tenure track position. So the extra requirement/year is not specific to the medicine career.</p>
This is because of the choice of the student. There are several programs that get you in the med school track right after HS, but if the student doesn’t want to do commit to medicine, or is bent on going to such-and-such level program only, then of course it can take longer.</p>
<p>Is it the most prestigious med school degree? Not at all, but graduates from this school are in every specialty you can think of, they get residencies in a variety of schools, and finally end up at all levels in the physician pay scale. </p>
<p>Among DD’s contemporaries in HS, at least 3 of her friends are in 7/8 year programs, and we know even more who have at least one offer at med school now, in their senior year at college. Some of her classmates are planning on gap years, and the most common reason is not that the med schools dont think they are mature, it’s that their GPA or MCATs weren’t competitive and they chose not to go the DO or Caribbean routes. They are choosing to do a year of research and retake the MCATs, or do a year of Masters in a wink-wink-you’re-guaranteed-an-A program to boost their GPAs because they are particular on the type of med schools they want to get into. </p>
<p>So are there a lot of >8 year after HS people not in residency? Sure, maybe even a majority, but for most it was primarily because of their choices or decisions, not because it was forced on them.</p>
<p>Which is somewhat illogical, IMO. The Davis students were protesting, primarily, UC tuition increases. But those increases come with a built-in tax to support the low income students. For every dollar raised in tuition/fees, 33 cents goes to the poor students. (The poor are protected from any increase and attend UC for free. Even the “middle” class receives grant money to attend UC.) Thus, the fee increase is a defacto 33% tax on the wealthy. Isn’t that what the Occupy crowd supports?</p>
<p>I had no idea that “State” was so popular among the children of the wealthy.
I was under the mistaken impression that most of them went to privates.</p>
<p>“There are several programs that get you in the med school track right after HS”</p>
<p>-yes, my D. was in one of them. Total cost will still depend on Merit awards (or if one is eligible for need based) in UG and if student has very high stats to get the same in Med. School. Some people assume that shorter route will be cheaper, which is not always true at all. For example, D. could have choose accelerated 6/7 years program. But, UG in this bs/md gave her Merit award that was covering her UG tuition only partially. In addition, bs/md tuition was higher than the rest of student body, because they needed to take about 21 credits every semester and have summer semesters also. D. choose non-accelerated 4+4 bs/md where her UG tuition (and a bit more) was covered 100% by Merit awards, so it was cheaper than accelerated 6/7 years program.</p>
<p>"For most docs and business pele (eg trump) debt is meaningless "
-Could you explain why. They are NOT planning to re-pay it? Otherwise, I am not sure how making $150 - $200 / year will make debt of about $300k meaningless. Anyway, it is NOT treated as meaningless in our family and that is the reason for us trying hard not to have any debt.</p>
