<p>For all of you who are considering pursuing math, be aware that the math department here at Michigan is terrible. They suck at teaching calculus, and very few of the TA's speek coherent english. They make everything so much harder than it needs to be, and if you explain things on the exam like you learned to do in high school for the AP test, you get marked down.</p>
<p>It is a common complaint of students at top ranked Math departments. Princeton for example has a horrible reputation for the instruction of lower level math courses although Princeton is generally ranked #1 or #2 in math. </p>
<p>Michigan's math department is ranked among the top 10 nationally and its faculty is highly gifted. But they do not teach Math 115 and 116. There are simply too many students taking those classes to assign professors to them. But once you hit the 200 level math classes, you start getting professors teaching and at that point, the classes are very challenging and well taught.</p>
<p>But be careful what you say Nirvana. Michigan is a great place for students wishing to "pursue" math. It just isn't a great place for students who have to take lower level math classes as requirements or pre-requisits to other classes.</p>
<p>You know, this goes to show that rankings aren't everything. You don't fall in love w/ a school because of its ranking but because of amazing student experiences, an engaging intellectual atmosphere, and great student-teacher interaction. A school's professors and TAs set the tone for the institution. If they don't care about their students, how can a student be expected to be passionate about his/her field of study? Unfortunately, great teaching isn't factored in when ranking schools. Isn't teaching supposed to be the main activity that colleges and universities is supposed to do?</p>
<p>I don't think I made myself clear Globalist. Instruction at Michigan's mathematics department is brilliant. It is weak at the intro level, but for Math Majors (like myself), it was awesome.</p>
<p>Rankings are not 100% accurate, but they are usually pretty telling.</p>
<p>But those lower-level classes are often a student's introduction into a field. Having a horrible experience at that level could turn off that student's interest in pursuing that discipline. That's why it's even more important to have the best professors teach the intro classes. At UVa, many of the introductory classes are taught by the school's most stellar profs. It's his/her passion for his/her subject that lures students to want to learn more about that area of study. For example, UVa's Intro to Government class is taught by Professor Larry Sabato, an often-seen pundit on CNN, Fox News, etc. Yes, there were over 200 students in his class, but his passion was infective. I remember one day he couldn't teach the class, so he had former President Jimmy Carter fill in for him and talk about the gov't and the presidency. Another example is the Intro to Economics class taught by Prof. Elzinga. He totally cares about his students - so much so that every year he invites to his house anyone who lives too far to go home for Thanksgiving. Scores upon scores of students come over to his house for Thanksgiving dinner every year. Lastly, as you can read in this link, it's Ed Ayers passion that energizes his students, and he also happens to the be Dean of the College of Arts & Sciences. </p>
<p>I've had trouble in Math 116 (I'm a freshman this year). But they do have a Math Lab opened 6 days a week with free tutoring, and I've found it to be very valuable.</p>
<p>Globalist, I agree, but not in all cases. Math and English are the only two subjects that are tought by TAs at the intro level at Michigan....and Math majors almost always place out of intro Math and English majors usually place out of intro-English. </p>
<p>All other fields, Econ, Political Science, Psychology, History, Chemistry, Physics, Biololgy etc... are tought by professors as of day 1. </p>
<p>I am sure it is the same at every research university, including UVA.</p>
<p>Well, my point isn't so much about TAs vs. professors, its about passionate teachers who care about their students. I had an International Relations class on Eastern Europe taught by a Ph.D. candidate that was really awesome. </p>
<p>I think that people get too caught up on rankings, and high rankings do not equate great teaching. A school's research has more influence on a school's rankings than its teaching, and it's a common complaint that many professors at large research universities care more about their research. A university may have a Nobel/Pulitzer/Guggenheim/MacArthur Award winner in its faculty, but is he/she a good teacher or just a good researcher? Was he/she hired just to enhance that college’s prestige? Does he/she teach undergraduates? Even more to the point, does he/she teach undergraduates well or just goes through the motions? I remember reading a complaint in an old Berkeley thread about an engineering professor who literally read straight out of the text book, and that's how he taught his class. Yes, Berkeley is highly ranked but I'd rather have a passionate, inspiring teacher from an unranked LAC than that joker. I'm happy that at UVa, good teaching is necessary for tenure.</p>
<p>Many research universities are now making teaching an important requirement for their professors. Cornell is pushing hard in that regard. I am not sure if Michigan is, but I only had 3 or 4 bad professors in my 4 years at Michgan. The remaining 80%-90% of my professors were highly energized, cared about their students and made ample time to meet with us if we needed help.</p>
<p>Alexandre -
Can you tell me about the Honors Math program at Michigan? Do you recall any comparable programs at other schools that interested you?</p>
<p>I never really compared Michigan's math department to others when I was initially chosing a university. I didn't even know I was going to major in Math. I actually expected Political Science or History to compliment my Economics degree. But I eventually chose Math. Michigan's Math department, like many major research departments, is pretty weak at the intro level. However, if you are like most math majors, you will probably place out of intro Math (Calc I, II and III). If you do, then you have nothing to worry about. Michigan's mid and higher level courses are taught by full professors and they are very challenging and informative. I actually really enjoyed my math classes.</p>
<p>I was part of the Honors college. The only difference between thew Honors college and the regular university is the talent level of the students and the speed at which we move. So they usually cover a couple more chapters during the course of a semester. </p>
<p>I know this isn;t much information, but like I said, I never really compared Michigan's Math department to other universities. Of the schools I was consider, Michigan had one of the 4 best at Math as far as the rankings were concerned, but that was all I knew.</p>
<p>Glad to hear that the math dept is so well regarded. (Can we change the title on this thread?) Thanks for the reply.</p>
<p>Have any of you taken UM"s honor math class sequence (the 216,217... sequence, that is theory of calculus with proofs, leading to analysis)?</p>
<p>i share your sentiments, i took 115/116 at UM and now i'm taking 216. 115/116 was a lot harder, i took the calculus 3 over the summer at a local "ttt". They make intro a lot tougher than it has to be, its more about competition than actual learning. They make the ideas seem very abstract and i took BC calculus in high school, I actually had a good enough score to not take Calc 1, but i decided that it might boost my gpa. I realized soon that this was a bad decision. The exams in 115/116 were ridiculously hard and theoretical. But, i do believe u learn a lot from the course if u study a lot. But as a freshman last year, it was pretty discouraging that a class that I once aced would turn out this way. 216 now is actually not too bad, it all depends on the prof tho.</p>
<p>btw, UM honors program blows. GO ENGINEERING!!!</p>
<p>jeffl, </p>
<p>why exactly, do you believe "UM honors program blows", or is this just an engineering flame?</p>
<p>i know about 5 people from the honors program, i have not heard anything great from them about the program. u get an honors designation on your transcript and u take a lot of honors humanities classes(ie great books) I just don't think the honors students here get anything special for being an honors student.</p>