Hi guys. I’ve been accepted to Michigan LSA (still to hear back about the Honors Program) and to Cornell’s CALS. I got into Michigan EA and kinda had my mind set on attending there seeing as the ivy applications were a crap shoot. But now that I’ve been accepted to Cornell and I’m to visit both schools in the next few weeks, I’d really love some outside opinions and experiences on the two universities. I can easily see myself getting into the large state school vibe of Michigan with the social scene, sports, and of course the facilities and top academics, but I can’t help but feel like I shouldn’t turn my head from the “ivy prestige” that Cornell has to offer, even if it’s in a more rural area with a much smaller undergrad student body size. My dad keeps telling me to think about the job prospects I get from the school I attend, but would the large alumni network at Michigan cancel out the Ivy brand name for recruiting? I know after I visit both that I’ll be able to tell which one I enjoyed being at more, but I’m hoping you guys can fill me in on things that I’d miss in a one day visit of each school. Also, I applied for biological sciences to both schools but I’ve been having second thoughts on my major and want the ability to change it when I get to university. So I’m wondering how restricted I’ll be at CALS seeing as I would need an internal transfer to get into Arts and Sciences at Cornell, whereas there are way more majors on offer in the LSA School at Michigan. I’m from NY so Cornell is in-state, but my financial aid comes out to roughly the same for both schools (and I guess this is another complication if I want to transfer out of CALS at Cornell). Any suggestions at all? Anything would be appreciated and thanks in advance.
The Ivy brand is a myth. Take it from a Michigan AND Cornell alumnus who worked at exclusive IBanks and Consulting firms…where it matters, Cornell and Michigan have equal brands. That is not because Cornell lacks prestige, but because Michigan is also incredibly prestigious in both academe and corporate circles. You haver a lot of impressionable kids and elitist parents who will try to tell you otherwise, but their sentiments are not shared by either academe or the majority of hiring managers.
As such, I recommend you not worry about “prestige” and go with your gut. Visit both campuses, see which one you prefer.
In terms of transferring out of CALS to CAS, I trust it is fairly easy, but you want to double check with Cornell. At Michigan, switching majors within LSA is automatic, unless you are switching to a major like PPE or Public Policy. If you want to work after college, you want to also consider double majoring in CS, which opens a lot of doors…or perhaps try to get into Ross as a minor, or perhaps even major, although those are definitely difficult to transfer into.
Unlike CAS or COE at Cornell, CALS admits by major. Biology is reportedly one of the harder majors to be admitted to, so congrats for that. Transfer between colleges is not at all uncommon at Cornell, but it is still a process, transfer cannot be guaranteed and should not be presumed.
In the case of CALS, transfer to a different CALS major also involves some sort of process. (unlike CAS where no major is declared upfront). I don’t know anything about that process though, you should find out. But if you got into bio I would think transfer to most programs within CALs would be doable. Dyson might be one that should be less presumed though.
So with all that, I would say you should closely examine the course and credit requirements for CALS and your chosen major, and see if that’s the program of studies that you most want. Recognizing that if it turns out it isn’t, you can switch, but that’s not absolutely guaranteed. Also examine the requirements and options for your other program. and pick what fits you best.
To me, the program of studies, what you are going to take/learn, is the most important consideration.
I, for one, have not found the “Ivy brand” to be a myth. Over the years I have gotten two significant jobs where I believe it played a role. Michigan is perceived as a good school too though.
Neither school will get you a job or career. Only you can do that. Go with the fit and feel and of course options at both schools about your majors /minors. See which school gives you the best options. If your hung up on the “ivy” thing then do that. You don’t ever want to say “what if” later. You will get an excellent education at either school and both will give you excellent job prospects later, if you put in the work.
“I, for one, have not found the “Ivy brand” to be a myth. Over the years I have gotten two significant jobs where I believe it played a role. Michigan is perceived as a good school too though.”
monydad, Cornell obviously has an incredible brand, and it helps open doors. I meant that just because a university is a member of the Ivy League does not automatically mean it has a greater brand than a university that is not a member of the Ivy League. Columbia is not a better brand than Chicago or Johns Hopkins, Penn is not a better brand than Duke or Northwestern, Brown and Dartmouth are not better brands than Amherst, Swarthmore or Williams, Princeton is not a better brand than MIT or Caltech, Harvard and Yale are not better brands than Stanford, Cornell is not a better brand than Berkeley or Michigan etc…
There will be no difference in “brand name” quality for employment purposes, so I wouldn’t choose on that basis.
I have one daughter at Cornell and one at Michigan currently, and I am a Michigan alum. There are a lot of similarities between these two schools, and they tend to attract similar applicants. One BIG difference is the school spirit at Michigan. If you want the excitement of big-time football and rabid alumni, choose Michigan. You won’t find anything close at Cornell.
My Cornellian also found Cornell to be a bit competitive socially and in extracurriculars ( but not academically, interestingly) Cornell draws heavily from the East Coast and Michigan obviously has a greater percentage of Midwesterners. That can be a positive or negative depending on your preferences… 
Don’t get me wrong, she very much enjoyed her time at Cornell and wasn’t very interested in the rah-rah atmosphere at Michigan.
My Wolverine loooves Michigan and could have done a guaranteed transfer to Cornell but chose not to.
So visit both and choose on fit, not a perception of prestige. Oh, and yes, if you transfer to CAS you will be paying quite a bit more in tuition.
From what I’ve been told i would agree there is a big difference in sports. My report is that whole streets are impassible the day of a Michigan home football game. It’s like a national holiday or something, guys?
When I was there, at least, most people at Cornell would think that is frankly idiotic. People in my circle went to an occasional football game mostly to see how the Brown or Columbia “marching bands” were going to goof on us this time. They were pretty funny. Though I guess they had to be. Columbia didn’t win a single game the entire time I was there, if I’m not mistaken. The frat/sorority people tended to go to the games though. Maybe somebody at the frat was taking attendance or something ?
But to be clear Cornell is not devoid of a sports scene. It is not close to the same scale as Michigan but it does provide the desired outlet for those so inclined.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_UrhA-ilWQ
There’s stuff for you to attend and cheer about, root on your team and have a good time, along with lots of other people, if you’re into that. Just don’t expect the whole campus to close down or something because of it. Lots of people there won’t care.
“Lots of people there won’t care.”
Lots of people at Michigan don’t care either. So what?
I find this kinda funny comparing the sports scene between Cornell and Michigan but if somebody is going to mention hockey… Which school reached the frozen four this year???.. Michigan!
Re #7: It’s true, the campus enthusiastically supports a winning team. When that occurs.
My point was, a good chunk of the student body would be very ambivalent about the university pouring in the kind of resources, and changing scholarship and admissions practices, and the teams that they play, that would be necessary to consistently achieve these kind of results. I think it may be a real difference. People who are really into “big-time” college sports, want to consistently see their football team on TV, want to fill a 200,000 (or whatever) person stadium, will tend to go elsewhere. So the people who go there tend to be happy with the balance and priority towards sports that exists there. Which is different.
Practically all of your classmates at Cornell are going to be wicked smart and accomplished. At Michigan only perhaps the top 25% of your LSA classmates will be on par.
Knowing kids and graduates of both schools, the biggest difference is they describe Cornell as an " wicked intense" and “competitive” environment and you need a certain personality to handle that. We visited and felt just that and did not apply. Plus Ithaca the town that Cornell is part of is “Icky-ca” in comparison to Ann Arbor!! Michigan students are on the same level as Cornell students, take a look at each of their Common Data Sets and you will see the SAT/ACT score distributions being very similar!!
“Practically all of your classmates at Cornell are going to be wicked smart and accomplished. At Michigan only perhaps the top 25% of your LSA classmates will be on par.”
Not really. The student bodies are statistically identical. Cornell’s ACT average is 1 point higher than Michigan’s (32.5 vs 31.5) and SAT average is 50 points higher (1470 vs 1420). Students tend to have similar high school profiles in terms of APs, GPA and class rank. There may be a tiny difference, but it is not noticeable. To suggest that only a quarter of LSA’s class is comparable to Cornell’s CAS is patently false and the data does not support you on this whatsoever. You really should inform yourself before making such an insulting and ignorant statement.
My daughter’s experience at Cornell has been that most of her friends are average smart and accomplished, just like the students at Michigan. And she has met her share of students that she wonders, “how did they get in here?” Money, I guess. So no, the abilities of the students at Cornell are not noticeably better than those at Michigan at all.
if somebody cares, the distribution of scores (not the mean) might provide some insight on this point. See where the 25%ile is, in both cases.
Best to compare comparable schools though ie arts & sciences to arts & sciences; engineering to engineering.
Because the education department, hotel administration, etc. scores don’t matter if you aren’t applying to those programs. Unless for some reason you care about everybody who’s there, physically. Then compare the aggregates. Look at 25 %iles and 75 %iles of the aggregates.
So for example I just pulled up 2017 data for the two engineering colleges on the ASEE website.
The data they have is:
Michigan
21% accepted (3,311/15,780)
SAT 50% mid-ranges:
Math 770-690
Reading 720- 610
Writing 730- 630
ACT 50% mid-ranges:
Math 35-32
Composite 34-31
Cornell
12% accepted (1.520/12,335)
SAT 50% mid-Ranges :
Math 800-740
Reading 770-670
Writing 750- 700
ACT 50% mid-ranges :
Math 36-34
Composite 36-31
The SAT composites cannot be directly compared, because Cornell has always excluded the writing section from this.
But here they are anyway:
Michigan 2190 -1990
Cornell 1570- 1410 (you could scrounge up total estimates by adding in the Writing section midranges somehow, but that wouldn’t really be accurate)
Interpret as you will.
My take is this data does not support the “25%” claim in #11, but neither does it support the “identical” claim in #13. I, for one, can distinguish the two using this data.
That doesn’t mean one can necessarily obviously perceive this difference in the classroom, or walking around campus.
But I think schools with this differential of stats would typically occupy different places in the college rankings, for example. If they were “stand-alones”.
monydad, there are no recent official SAT and ACT ranges published for Michigan’s LSA and Cornell’s CAS. Even the CoE data you provided look more like stats for admitted students as opposed as data for enrolling students.
I would assume the CDS figure is a fairly good representation of the overall student body, and according to their latest CDSs, Cornell’s mean ACT/SAT scores are comparable to Michigan’s (32.5/1470 at Cornell vs 31.5/1420 at Michigan).
Each yr, these acceptance stats vary. So think of where they will be 4 years and where you might fit on that arc: 2018-2022.
Quite honestly, if you are looking for prestige and logo on your diploma, then you’ve missed the point of the dash between.
re #18: All I can say is the data I posted was titled “Newly Enrolled Test Scores”