Michigan (Ross BBA Undergrad) vs NYU (Stern Undergrad)

[HaroldSawyer]

<p>@rjkofovi NYU publishes it’s placement data as a whole so they can avoid publishing data for individual schools. The reason is not because Stern itself places badly, but its more likely because the don’t want to expose how crappy the other schools of NYU place. Think about it, Stern is actually the only respectable school at Nyu l </p>

<p>@Alexandre I like how you mentioned that its impossible for anyone to have a 53% IB placement, and how there is a generally low trend of IB placement from all schools( 15-25%), so my mistake from earlier haha. Stern definitely falls in that range also. Like given the 102 people from that I already found who work in IB from the top 10 companies, this already constitutes for about 17% of the Stern graduating class… not to mention the people who aren’t even on LinkedIn, after all, like you said, LinkedIN obviously can’t predict the number of people in IB who DON’t have LinkedIN lol, but it surely can account for people who do. So we know at LEAST 102 Sternies currently work as IB Analysts from the 9-10 all the companies I previously mentioned… </p>

<p>Haha you’re right abot LinkedIn though. The large number of people who were excluded from LinkedIN from Ross and Wharton (Wharton’s 2013 Undergraduate Data: <a href=“http://www.vpul.upenn.edu/careerservices/files/Class2013CareerPlans.pdf”>http://www.vpul.upenn.edu/careerservices/files/Class2013CareerPlans.pdf&lt;/a&gt; ) show that LinkedIN definitely is not a good predictor of what we don’t know, but it at least gives an idea of what we do know. </p>

[HaroldSawyer]

<p>@Alexandre if you ever find Stern’s placement data, please do message me haha </p>

[ennisthemenace]

<p>

@Alexandre

On a final note, I do not recommend using linkedin as a source, especially when conversing with well-informed individuals. In the case of Ross, Wharton, Dyson, McDonough, McIntire, Sloan etc…, you just need to look at the respective placement reports, just like the ones I posted above. After all, why guess and extrapolate when you can actually rely on factual data? In the case of Stern…well, in their case, you may resort the the absolute certainty of linkedin!

The placement reports are somewhat misleading as well since they don’t tell you exactly what positions in the banks that these business school graduates entered. Only very few of the Ross grads that entered JP Morgan became IBanking analysts; the rest pursued less desirable roles like Asset Management, Wealth Management, Credit Risk, IT, etc.</p>

<p>Maybe Stern doesn’t need to release placement data since its prowess in being a top Wall Street feeder school alongside other schools such as Harvard, Georgetown, Dartmouth, Duke, and Cornell is already established.</p>

<p>Are you going to doubt Harvard Alexandre just because they don’t release a report detailing what their graduates do once they leave campus?</p>

<p>Besides, if I’m truly ambitious and want to be the best of the best, I want to attend a school that sends the most graduates to I Banks in pure numbers since I’m more concerned with how the best graduates from a program are doing. Stern is better represented at virtually every I Bank compared to Ross and that’s a fact.If you graduate at the top of your class at Stern, you have a better shot of getting a job at Morgan Stanley compared to Ross.</p>

<p>How can we be sure that a lot of Ross graduates aren’t attempting to get IBanking jobs because they know that they are not qualified enough? They might be “settling” for companies like J&J, Target, Amazon, etc. since they are not as selective as IBanking firms and their career counselors might be steering them away from finance.</p>

[Alexandre]

<p>“The placement reports are somewhat misleading as well since they don’t tell you exactly what positions in the banks that these business school graduates entered. Only very few of the Ross grads that entered JP Morgan became IBanking analysts; the rest pursued less desirable roles like Asset Management, Wealth Management, Credit Risk, IT, etc.”</p>

<p>True enough. But that is the case with all programs. It’s not like al Stern graduates join IBanks as IBanking analysts.</p>

<p>“Maybe Stern doesn’t need to release placement data since its prowess in being a top Wall Street feeder school alongside other schools such as Harvard, Georgetown, Dartmouth, Duke, and Cornell is already established.”</p>

<p>Michigan’s prowess is just as established as those schools you listed. It does not stop Ross from publishing details on the placement of its graduates. Cornell Dyson and Georgetown McDonough also have placement reports, as do all good undergraduate business programs, including Sloan, McIntire, Ross and Wharton. Stern is an outlier. Dartmouth and Duke do not have undergraduate business programs.</p>

<p>“Are you going to doubt Harvard Alexandre just because they don’t release a report detailing what their graduates do once they leave campus?”</p>

<p>I am not going to doubt Harvard. But I do doubt Stern. The two are not the same. Harvard is Harvard, Stern isn’t!</p>

<p>“How can we be sure that a lot of Ross graduates aren’t attempting to get IBanking jobs because they know that they are not qualified enough? They might be “settling” for companies like J&J, Target, Amazon, etc. since they are not as selective as IBanking firms and their career counselors might be steering them away from finance.”</p>

<p>“Besides, if I’m truly ambitious and want to be the best of the best, I want to attend a school that sends the most graduates to I Banks in pure numbers since I’m more concerned with how the best graduates from a program are doing.”</p>

<p>That’s pretty much the standard attitude of the majority of students at all top universities, including NYU and Michigan. </p>

<p>“Stern is better represented at virtually every I Bank compared to Ross and that’s a fact.If you graduate at the top of your class at Stern, you have a better shot of getting a job at Morgan Stanley compared to Ross.”</p>

<p>Better represented? Yes, obviously, since Stern has 2-3 times more graduates applying for such jobs. Better shot at getting a job at Morgan Stanley (or any BB IBank)? Not really. In fact, I would not be surprised if the placement rate is as high, if not higher, from Ross, mostly thanks to its more benign grading philosophy and to having far fewer applicants for such jobs in the first place.</p>

<p>I never claimed that all Ross graduates who wish to pursue careers in IBanking are successfully placed. But the competition for such jobs at Ross is not nearly as intense as it is at Stern. Stern is known to be very cutthroat, precisely for this reason. You should check out the grading curve at Stern and compare it to Ross. Ross is not considered cutthroat. The percentage of students who wish to pursue careers in Management, Marketing and Consulting from Ross is much higher than it is at Stern, and the percentage of students who wish to pursue careers in IBanking from Ross is significantly lower than it is at Stern. </p>

[ennisthemenace]

<p>Thank for your analysis Alexandre. Why do you think so many Ross students are interested in Marketing when the pay is so low?</p>

[SomeOldGuy]

<p>Shockingly, not everyone is interested in moving to New York. Or, to quote the band Foxygen, “You don’t have to be an ■■■■■■■; you’re not in Brooklyn any more.”</p>

[HaroldSawyer]

<p>@Alexandre I like how you avoided my last point in my previous paragraph lol </p>

<p>But please stop assuming that the competition is only between students in their own school. On wall street, the competition is between students from one school with other students from every school, not just their own school. There’s no such thing as a cap on the number of students that can be hired within a school. There is just a cap of number of students that can be hired each year…</p>

<p>@ennisthemenace your point is very spot on. 16 students from Ross were put into JPM, but only about 2-3 would end up in Investment Banking. After I spoke with several Ross students, they all told me that only the very top tier of Ross students manage to land IB positions in the top BB firms… 15-16% sounds about right. Apparently, the other 85% are either: rejected from these firms and go into less competitive fields, in other majors to begin with, or turned off by the idea that IB requires 100-120 workweeks, and would much rather have less pay and 40 hour work weeks. </p>

<p>IB requires intelligence, drive, and dedication. The vast majority of Ross’s students are only admitted after their Freshman year at Michigans LSA, and so the quality Ross students is obviously much lower than that of Stern, which explains why Ross students are generally not cut out for IB, but their top tier of students obviously are. Those were likely the preadmitted class also. </p>

<p>Basically, the average accepted student in Ross had a 3.68 from LSA, and about 33% of the total Ross applicants were admitted. The students from LSA aren’t exactly the brightest either, generally speaking, as one would need about a 90 GPA and a 2000+ SAT on average, at least from my school. </p>

<p>Stern as a whole, on the other hand, firstly rarely allows internal transfers, and it’s incoming freshman class has about a 12% acceptance rate, in which 92% of its class was in the top 10% of their high school, and its students usually score in the top 1% of sat scores (2200+). Its selectivity is similar to that of Ross’s Pre-Admit program. Evidently, the students at Ross would need to prove themselves more by having these placement reports and higher GPAS, since the quality of its students arent exactly as appealing to recruiters. Since the vast majority of Stern’s students are already Ivy Caliber, and every wall street/IB recruiter knows Stern and the quality of students that it contains, so there is essentially no need to create a placement report to “Prove” its value, it has already been long-established as one of the top target schools like Harvard, Wharton and the other Ivys. (Although, it wouldn’t hurt if the students themselves could see these stats!)</p>

<p>People only apply to Stern because they already know it is a golden ticket to the best financial positions… if Stern truly gave the impression that it was worse than Ross, it wouldn’t have 6000+ applicants every year. The applicants may as well apply to places like Michigan, where its easier to get admitted and where it would “supposedly” be easier to land IB jobs, but clearly thats not the case </p>

[SomeOldGuy]

<p>As I was saying . . . .</p>

[Alexandre]

<p>Harold, your post above makes 2 faulty assumptions:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>That students do not compete with their classmates for jobs. That is completely incorrect. In fact, the stiffest competition students face is from their own classmates. Students must first compete for grades (Stern is notorious for grade deflation, while Ross is known for grade inflation), and then, they compete for the limited jobs available to them. Companies do in fact cap the number of interviews that they conduct at each program or university they recruit at, and ultimately, limit the number of students that they hire from each university. That is why Stern has such a steep grading curve. With literally 500 students vying for jobs at Goldman Sachs each year, they have to provide companies with a reasonably reliable rating. Like I said, I think Ross is a surer bet.</p></li>
<li><p>That Ross is not as selective as Stern. That is incorrect. Ross is as selective as Stern…and the quality of the students is roughly identical. For the one third of Ross students that are preadmitted, you actually have figures that you can compare to Stern. 2,000 applied of which 350 were admitted (15%) and of those who enrolled, the average cummulative unweighed HS GPA was 3.9, SAT (CR+M only) was 1490. The remaining 65% of Ross students are admitted after completing at least one year at Michigan. Those cannot be compared statistically to Ross preadmits or to Stern students since the the Ross admissions office relies primarily of their performance and accomplishments at Michigan (in and out of the classroom). However, their credentials are equally as impressive. As it is, Michigan is very selective, and the the ones that get into Ross are generally ranked among the top third of the Michigan student body. </p></li>
</ol>

<p><a href=“Bachelor of Business Administration | Michigan Ross”>http://www.bus.umich.edu/admissions/UndergraduatePrograms/PDF/BBA_Class_Profiles.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

[dwr6254]

<p>LOL I agree the Ross Pre-admit pool is very selectie and brings in a really talented group of 130 students. However, the other 75% of students in Ross that come in during Soph year drags down the quality of Ross like the person above said. @Alexandre the points you use definitely help me to confirm it.</p>

<p>Notice the Ross Pre-Admit average sat is 1483 (CR+M), and they on average have 3.9’s… which is definitely in the top 10% of almost every high school. These pre-admit kids constitute for about 25% of the class (130/500), but then there’s the total Ross class average SAT, which is a 1377 (Business-week). That means the other 75% of the class (370/500) dragged the average sat scores down by over 100 points, meaning the Regular-Ross-Admit students’s averages had to have been about a 1340 (CR+M). Sorry if these numbers arent completely accurate, but the point is that the regular Ross admits are generally really mediocre in comparison. </p>

<p>Compared to Stern’s students, whose total average is 1440 (CR+M), the majority of Ross’s students as a whole, are clearly a less capable group. Its not surprising that many of the Ross students aren’t cut out for IB, and likely wouldn’t even dream of going after such a cut-throat environment. Luckily, there’s that well-known Ross grade inflation would help out a good deal of these students with their lackluster performances in class.</p>

<p>Stern’s gpa is only deflated because it has about 600 ivy caliber students competing for jobs, and yeah there’s definitely competition within each school, but the competition definitely extends more so beyond just the school.
Additionally, recruiters know that Ross has major grade inflation, and they clearly know Stern has major deflation, since they are indeed “notorious” for it. These curves explain why only the very top %ile of Ross students receive top IB jobs, while kids with 3.5’s+ at Stern can still get the same positions. </p>

[dwr6254]

<p>@Alexandre what are your credentials even? Like from a quick scroll on your profile, it looks like you’ve attended Michigan some point or another, and its appears that you spend a LOT of your time on CC talking about random things that aren’t even college or job related… like do you even WORK in IB? or like have a job even… lol almost 21,000 posts </p>

[rjkofnovi]

<p>Alexandre is a super moderator here at CC. As such, he has the ability to modify or even eliminate any postings, both of yours included. </p>

[Alexandre]

<p>dwr, the 1377 SAT average is not for Ross, it is for Michigan overall. The mid 50% for all Freshmen enrolling at Michigan last year was 1280-1480, with a mean of 1380 or so. Ross does not publish mean SAT scores for the entire class, only for preadmits (their mean SAT is 1490), but the students who enroll at Michigan and then successfully enroll at Ross typically have much higher SAT scores than the 1380 average. If the mean is 1380 for all students, and those who get into Ross once at Michigan (non-preadmits) are among the top quarter of the student body at Michigan (typically Michigan students who are admitted at Ross have Michigan GPAs in the 3.6+ range, placing them in the top quartile of Michigan students), it is safe to say that their SAT scores were higher than the mean (likely well over 1450, since the top quartile at Michigan scored over 1480 on the SAT).</p>

<p>Generally speaking, only 4 year programs like Wharton and Stern publish admissions data separately. Programs like Ross, Haas and McIntire, that admit most, if not all, of their students from their own student body and not out of high school, do not publish SAT means and averages. As such, you are incorrect in assuming that direct admits into Ross are stronger academically. Like most very selective programs, Ross preadmit is very random. Many equally gifted students are not preadmitted but enroll in Michigan and are admitted once there. Try to think logically guys. Virtually every single post you have written has been flawed and filled with incorrect assumptions. </p>

<p>As for my own personal background and the number of posts, it sort of comes with the territory. I joined CC 10 years ago and have been a Super Moderator ever since. I won’t bore you guys with my career trajectory though.</p>

[HaroldSawyer]

<p>@Alexandre, all my data came from Businessweek, LinkedIN, Ross Placement, and Wharton Placements. I have no bias, I just analyze what is presented and make conclusions from that. Obviously, my conclusions can’t all be true, but to say your conclusions are more valid? Well…</p>

<p>Anyone who reads these posts who don’t have any prior bias to these schools can easily see the extreme bias you show towards Michigan as well as the many flaws in every post you say as well, especially considering that: you have no actual wall street or banking background, you have 21000 posts on college confidential, and your data also comes predominantly from assumptions that you’ve made throughout the years you’ve obsessed over Michigan, but can’t validate with published data aside from the sites I’ve mentioned above ^^^^, so I you’re not exactly a reliable source. </p>

<ol>
<li>Go find a link that shows Stern’s separate data, because I guarantee that you won’t</li>
<li>Find some evidence that shows Michigan’s average sat CR+M is 1377, since you’re so sure that the data published on Businessweek for Michigan accounts only for Michigan, and this special treatment doesn’t apply to the schools that are better than Michigan.</li>
<li>Ross Pre-Admit definitely is not random, since the majority of students are very smart. 1480 SAT + 3.9 GPA as just the average shows they definitely put a lot of weight on academic performance and scores</li>
<li>Unless you can show some actual evidence (that doesn’t come from your mouth) that proves anything I’ve said is false, you’re assumptions that my conclusions are wrong aren’t true either.</li>
<li>Just by re-reading your posts alone, one can see that your own data isn’t even concrete, and you change your own statistics on a frequent basis to try and make Ross look like a better school than it actually is. Don’t believe me? Go re-read some of your own posts. there are so many inconsistencies. </li>
<li><p>It’s not hard to get a 3.6+ at Michigan LSA and end up in the top 1/3rd of your class</p></li>
<li><p>This thread was intended to help UCdreamer and future applicants make a better choice in applying to B-schools according to their goals, but they can choose for themselves and make their own conclusions by looking at the data presented in this thread. (See pages 2 and 3). </p></li>
<li><p>Alexandre isn’t the only person from Ross on this site. A quick chat with a few other Ross grads or current students can easily expose you to the reality that Ross would be worse for IB lol hopefully these students you speak to aren’t as biased in opinion. </p></li>
<li><p>To keep arguing is pretty pointless because our arguments won’t change the reality of anything. Generally speaking, its just a fact that Stern is better than Ross in the long run for IB, PE and HFs. Take a few steps into wall street and you’ll see what I mean. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>If you want to work for Ge, Amazon, Ford, look towards Ross.
Goldman, Morgan Stanley, JPM -> Stern. (You don’t hear kids who want to AVOID IB saying “Yeah Stern is my #1 choice”) lol </p>

[Alexandre]

<p>“Find some evidence that shows Michigan’s average sat CR+M is 1377, since you’re so sure that the data published on Businessweek for Michigan accounts only for Michigan, and this special treatment doesn’t apply to the schools that are better than Michigan.”</p>

<p>All of my data is based on fact Harold. According to the Michigan common data set for Michigan’s most recent Freshman class:
Mid 50% CR 620-720
Mid 50% M 660-760
Mid 50% CR+M ± 1280-1480
Mean ± 1380</p>

<p>Like I said, the 1377 figure posted by BW must be that of Michigan overall, not of Ross. Ross is significantly more selective than Michigan overall as the average student admitted at Ross has a Michigan GPA of 3.7.</p>

<p><a href=“http://obp.umich.edu/wp-content/uploads/pubdata/cds/cds_2013-2014_umaa.pdf”>http://obp.umich.edu/wp-content/uploads/pubdata/cds/cds_2013-2014_umaa.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Unfortunately, NYU’s has not posted a common data set since 2008 (again, very suspicious). However, according to the 2014 USNWR, NYU’s mid 50% SAT ranges are:
Mid 50% CR 620-720
Mid 50% M 640-740
Mid 50% CR+M ± 1260-1460
Mean ± 1360</p>

<p>Clearly, the 1444 SAT figure posted by BW must be that of Stern specifically, since it is slightly, but clearly, higher than NYU’s overall average of 1360 by 84 points.</p>

<p><a href=“http://premium.usnews.com/best-colleges/new-york-university-2785/applying/entering-class-stats”>http://premium.usnews.com/best-colleges/new-york-university-2785/applying/entering-class-stats&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>I repeat Harold, you frequently make incorrect and sweeping assumptions. Like your statement that:</p>

<ol>
<li>Stern students are smarter than Ross students</li>
<li>Or that students do not compete with their classmates for jobs</li>
<li>Or that it is not difficult to maintain a 3.7 GPA at Michigan</li>
<li>Or that it is easier to get a job on Wall Street from Stern</li>
<li>Or that 53% of Stern students work in IBanking vs 16% of Ross students based on BW loose definition of “Financial Services”</li>
</ol>

<p>Those are just some faulty assumptions that you made based on poorly-evaluated data. If you had taken the time to do some research, you would have avoided those errors. </p>

<p>Most of my statements have been based on fact. I generally rely almost entirely on source data (common data sets, placement reports etc…). I never said it was easier to get a job on Wall Street from Ross. I said that last year, 30 Ross students joined GS, MS and JPM (factual as shown in the link below), which statistically isn’t much lower than Wharton when adjusted for size. Since Stern does not publish data, I said we don’t know for sure, but that since Wharton isn’t significantly better than Ross, it is safe to say that Stern won’t be either. </p>

<p><a href=“http://www.bus.umich.edu/pdf/EmploymentData2013.pdf”>http://www.bus.umich.edu/pdf/EmploymentData2013.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>You rely almost entirely on opinion, Businessweek, hearsay and linkedin. I hope that if you ever do make it to Wall Street, you approach your work far more diligently and thoroughly. </p>

[rjkofnovi]

<p>“Unfortunately, NYU’s has not posted a common data set since 2008 (again, very suspicious).”</p>

<p>Says a lot about the credibility of Stern, don’t you think “Hal?”</p>

[HaroldSawyer]

<p>LOL @Alexandre, if the average Michigan SAT is a 1380, you are also including the engineering majors, pre-med majors and math majors, whose general sats are a lot higher than 1380 and they don’t even apply to Ross… after all the exclusions, the average Ross applicant indeed falls at around the mid 1300s, since the majority of students at large public schools who apply for business majors aren’t exactly smart or have any true passions… </p>

<p>Its easy to tell you don’t know a lot about statistics either…
-You can’t average the 25th %ile score and the 75th %ile score and assume that number is the average score. It won’t even give you a median score</p>

<p>-How can you compare Michigan’s 2013’s data to NYU’s 2008 data? Aren’t you aware that these aren’t even fair comparisons? Average/median sat admissions standards have gotten so much more difficult since 2008… you’ve been on CC for 10 years this should be easy for you to spot. </p>

<p>Michigan’s 2008 data was
Critical Reading 590-690 25-75%ile
Mathematics 630-730 25-75%ile
CR “average” according to you, would be a 640, and Math would be a 680 at that time. 680+640=1320. Nyu’s “average” was 1360 in 2008. Interesting how that works huh? </p>

<p>Given this fact, you made Michigan’s average sat of today look 60 points higher in comparison to NYU’s, even though its data was from 2008, when in reality, the general trend of sat scores have just increased in all the universities by a significant figure, and Michigan’s sat scores were still lower than that of NYU’s even in 2008 lol </p>

<p>Additionally, a student can have a 1200 sat and a 3.8 fresh year at Mich and still get admitted to Ross since their sats aren’t even considered in the Ross sophomore admission process, so that even leaves more room for low sat scorers to get admitted into ross after fresh year. </p>

<p>So again with these “assumptions”

1. If you want to find out, you can call the admissions and ask for their data. If not, I think its safe to say that Ross students still generally aren’t as smart lol. Even for me, I applied to Ross as a safety since I knew I’d get in. Stern was more of a reach. </p>

<ol>
<li><p>You were saying how competition is only against classmates, I was saying how its just against people in general, which includes classmates. What do you expect from IB… its competitive. And I like how you avoided addressing the fact that recruiters know Ross inflates GPA while Stern deflates, so that’s why only the top range of students from ross get these good IB jobs hahaha</p></li>
<li><p>Is it 3.6 or 3.7? Your numbers are still very inconsistent from post to post. Either way, it shouldn’t be hard to keep that average during your 1st year at a public university and get in the top 3rd of your class if you’re smart… if you can’t, you probably shouldn’t be going into business in the first place… </p></li>
<li><p>It’s just common sense that Stern students can access wall street jobs more easily lmao you can literally walk to your interview. Interviews can walk or take a 10 minute drive to the students lol minimal travelling costs</p></li>
<li><p>I was already able to find 102 current top 10 BB firm IB analysts on LinkedIN from Stern. Once again, LinkedIN isn’t reliable to PREDICT the number of people in each school in IB, but it definitely CONFIRMS that at least 102 students from Stern are currently in it, vs the 50ish from Ross. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>In Businessweek, Financial services may, or may not, have meant “Finance” in general for NYU. I only made a list of students who are currently working in the top 10 BB firms for IB… end of the day, that’s only 10 companies… there are also hundreds of boutique, MM, and other random companies in NYC where a stern student can get an IB job …</p>

<p>Even if it meant Finance in general, there are STILL hundreds of more businesses that aren’t IB related in NYC that a finance major can work for… So everything I said about that is still pretty spot on lol </p>

<p>I love how you avoid addressing points, like 3,4,5,7,8,9, and your data for sat averages from ross vs stern are still inaccurate and inequitable hahaha</p>

[Alexandre]

<p>"LOL @Alexandre, if the average Michigan SAT is a 1380, you are also including the engineering majors, pre-med majors and math majors, whose general sats are a lot higher than 1380 and they don’t even apply to Ross… </p>

<p>That is true, but it also includes Art, Music, Education, Nursing and Kinesiology, whose general stats are a lot lower than 1380. Also, a lot of Engineering, Math and Premeds apply to Ross. Besides, Michigan students who apply to Ross take the same classes as those premed and Math majors, and they still manage to maintain, on average, a 3.7 GPA at Michigan. </p>

<p>“after all the exclusions, the average Ross applicant indeed falls at around the mid 1300s, since the majority of students at large public schools who apply for business majors aren’t exactly smart or have any true passions…”</p>

<p>Wow, that’s quite the assumption. But it is flawed because the average Michigan GPA for Michigan students admitted into Ross is 3.7. I doubt that Ross students lack passion. </p>

<p>“-How can you compare Michigan’s 2013’s data to NYU’s 2008 data? Aren’t you aware that these aren’t even fair comparisons? Average/median sat admissions standards have gotten so much more difficult since 2008… you’ve been on CC for 10 years this should be easy for you to spot.”</p>

<p>Harold, I did not use NYU’s 2008 CDS in my post above. I used the 2014 USNWR range and even provided a link. I thought I made that pretty clear in my post. Somebody must lack reason altogether to compare data from 2013 to data from 2008! Historically, NYU and Michigan have had almost identical SAT ranges. NYU does not seem to have many functioning CDSs. I am not sure why that is. But I did manage to find the only NYU CDS that actually works (2011-2012).</p>

<p>According to both Universities’ 2011-2012 CDSs:
Michigan Mid 50% range:
CR 600-700
Math 650-750</p>

<p><a href=“http://obp.umich.edu/wp-content/uploads/pubdata/cds/umaa_cds2012.pdf”>http://obp.umich.edu/wp-content/uploads/pubdata/cds/umaa_cds2012.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>NYU
CR 630-720
Math 630-740 </p>

<p><a href=“Research with Human Subjects”>Research with Human Subjects;

<p>Like I said, almost identical. </p>

<p>“1. If you want to find out, you can call the admissions and ask for their data. If not, I think its safe to say that Ross students still generally aren’t as smart lol. Even for me, I applied to Ross as a safety since I knew I’d get in. Stern was more of a reach.”</p>

<p>Ross is a safety for you? That’s impressive. You are obviously referring to Ross preadmit. Ross preadmit is as selective as Stern…possibly even more so. Did you not see the data posted by Ross for preadmit? 2,000 applied, 350 admitted, mean unweighed GPA 3.9, mean SAT 1484. Those numbers are similar to Stern. In fact, the SAT may be slightly higher, but about 30-40 points. That is insignificant, but clearly points to Ross preadmi being at least as selective as Stern.</p>

<p><a href=“Bachelor of Business Administration | Michigan Ross”>http://www.bus.umich.edu/admissions/UndergraduatePrograms/PDF/BBA_Class_Profiles.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>“2. You were saying how competition is only against classmates, I was saying how its just against people in general, which includes classmates. What do you expect from IB… its competitive. And I like how you avoided addressing the fact that recruiters know Ross inflates GPA while Stern deflates, so that’s why only the top range of students from ross get these good IB jobs hahaha”</p>

<p>I did not ignore it. Recruiters just do not care if a school high grade inflation or grade deflation. They have their GPA expectations which they apply across the board. Do you think employers will value a 3.3 GPA from a program with grade deflation practices over a 3.7 GPA from a program with grade inflation policies?</p>

<p>“3. Is it 3.6 or 3.7? Your numbers are still very inconsistent from post to post. Either way, it shouldn’t be hard to keep that average during your 1st year at a public university and get in the top 3rd of your class if you’re smart… if you can’t, you probably shouldn’t be going into business in the first place…”</p>

<p>The average is 3.68, but 80% of successful Michigan applicants have 3.5+ GPAs.</p>

<p>“4. It’s just common sense that Stern students can access wall street jobs more easily lmao you can literally walk to your interview. Interviews can walk or take a 10 minute drive to the students lol minimal travelling costs”</p>

<p>I am afraid it does not work that way Harold. Some of the most fertile hunting grounds for IBanks at no that close to NYC, including Dartmouth, Duke, Michigan, UVa.</p>

<p>“5. I was already able to find 102 current top 10 BB firm IB analysts on LinkedIN from Stern. Once again, LinkedIN isn’t reliable to PREDICT the number of people in each school in IB, but it definitely CONFIRMS that at least 102 students from Stern are currently in it, vs the 50ish from Ross.”</p>

<p>That sounds about right. Given the size difference between Ross and Stern, I would expect Stern to have twice as many alums working on Wall Street. How does that prove that Stern is better at placing students in Wall Street firms? I would understand if Stern placed 6 or 7 times more students, but twice? Even if Ross and Stern were the same size, it would not prove that Stern provides any real advantage. But Ross is 50% smaller than Stern. Either way, do yourself a favor and never use linkedin to make a point. It will slide here because nobody knows you, but in the real world, you will be mocked for using a source such as linkedin to make a point.</p>

<p>At any rate, I repeat my initial point. There is no evidence that Stern is more effective at placing students in Wall Street jobs. Of all the programs I have seen, only Wharton edges out Ross, and even then, not by as much as one may think. I rather doubt that Stern is as potent as Wharton, and unless the program starts publishing placement data, we will simply never know. As far as I am concerned, Ross and Stern are roughly identical in their ability to place grads in Wall Street banks. The main difference, as I have point out repeatedly, is that the atmosphere at Ross is less cutthroat, more collegiate and more laidback. </p>

[dwr6254]

<p>Alexandre and Harold, this thread needs to end and you two need to relax lol. Ross is good and highly respected, no doubt. Just less in Investment Banking than Wharton, Harvard, Stern, Dartmouth or Duke. Though one can’t statistically prove this, its just the general vibe. Alexandre, if you had actually worked in IB on wall street and not spent hours on CC everyday, you would know this. </p>

<p>I spoke with my uncle today about Stern vs Ross after reading Alexandre’s posts, as I began to doubt my decision to ED 2 to Stern due to the competitiveness, curve and sketchy placement. But he said that Stern is definitely a better choice and places better than almost every college since almost all recruiters on wall street know that Stern produces high quality students and that it deflates gpa, and therefore they have different expectations for different schools. Of course, a 3.7 at Ross > 3.3 at Stern, but a 3.5 at Stern>>3.5 at Ross if everything else was about the same, while a 3.4 at Stern would be about the same as a 3.6-3.7 at Ross. </p>

<p>Apparently, a Ross student would have to be much more impressive in terms of activities, interviews, and academics to get the same position as one from the aforementioned universities, at least for IB in Morgan Stanley (he was an MD there).Ross students need to be top 10% of the class to get into IB at MS or GS on wall street. Definitely not the case at Stern. 5 Sternies were hired under his management in 2012, 2 had 3.5s, 2 had 3.6s, 1 had a 3.7. Only 1 from Ross, and he had a 4.0. In 2011, 6 Sternies, 4 had a 3.5-3.7, 1 with a 3.8, 1 with a 3.9. 2011 had 2 kids from Ross, both had a 4.0. Many Ross kids with 3.8s and 3.9s are rejected. Make your own conclusions</p>

<p>I think I’ll put more faith in my uncle’s advice to go with Stern, since he has legitimate credentials and actual experience in Ibanking in a BB firm. </p>

[Alexandre]

<p>dwr, I worked for a BB IBank from 1996-1999. I changed careers after graduate school as I did not enjoy finance. I have, over the years, maintained close ties with Financial institutions. My own family (including father, uncles and grandparents) have reached very senior levels with institutions such as Goldman Sachs, Credit Suisse and BNP Paribas. Also, several of my friends from my years in Banking are now SVPs, Directors and some even Executives at BB IBanks. I even know the head of HR at one of the top 3 IBanks, and receive annual reports of where they recruit the most. </p>

<p>Like you, I also base some of my thoughts on opinion and experience. For example, I personally think Ross is in fact a safer option than Stern because there is far less competition for IBanking jobs and the grading philosophy is much more conducive to graduate school admissions and job placement. Besides, NYU does not offer such a great college experience while Michigan offers the quintessential college experience. But that is purely my opinion. I have no concrete evidence that Stern’s cutthroat grading policies or that the number of grads focusing on investment banking affect the odds of success, and not everybody seeks the collegiate lifestyle offered at Michigan. Conversely, I have not seen any evidence of a preference for Stern, Dartmouth or Duke candidates over Ross, although there does appear to be a preference for Harvard, Princeton and Wharton candidates. Clearly, my experience and opinion differ from that of your uncle. I am sure there are many like your uncle, who believe that Stern is a notch above Ross. However, the majority of the people I have spoken to on this subject do not accord it any more respect than other major target. </p>

<p>None of that matters, though, since it cannot be proven. I rely almost entirely on data when I make statements on CC, and Stern, Duke and Dartmouth do not publish data, although in the case of Dartmouth and Duke, it is understandable since they do not have undergraduate business programs. </p>

<p>I will publish exact figures for PE firms later this week. I will focus primarily on Bain, Blackstone, Carlyle and KKR. It will be interesting to see which undergraduate institution is better represented. I know Harvard and Penn will be the top 2 by far, but when I conducted this exercise a few years ago, Michigan actually did better than NYU.</p>