Michigan (Ross BBA Undergrad) vs NYU (Stern Undergrad)

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Michigan
1

<p>Background:
-Male
-NYC Resident
-Don't need Financial Aid at all (though scholarships cant hurt)
-Accepted to Michigan EA
-Applying to Stern (good chance of getting in)
-Intended Major: Finance
-Future Job Aspirations: Investment Banking</p>

<p>Current gathered input:</p>

<p>-Stern is very cutthroat and competitive, and it has the "stern curve" which gives only maybe 25% of the class an A, while the majority get B's and Cs
-Ross is less competitive in that manner, and people generally do better than kids at Stern in terms of GPA
-Stern is in the middle of the city so it has better networking, better internship/job opportunities, but the school there gears you toward a more professional route, and the undergrad experience there can be more comparable to an MBA experience there.... this results in wall street companies being packed by "Sternies", but for some reason, Stern somehow only has a 67% job placement according to Businessweek
-Ross is far away from NYC, and people there rely more on On-Campus Recruiting, alumni connections, networking, and travelling to NYC for interviews on your own, supposedly the job placement into these big name banking companies is just as good, though there is no statistical evidence of this, but it seems that Ross has a way higher job placement of 91% according to Businessweek
-The average salary for Ross Graduates is $62,000 first year; its top employers are Deloitte(10 people), Microsoft (8 people), Accenture (8 people), Goldman Sachs (7 people)
-The average salary for Stern Graduates is $62,000 first year; top employers: PWC, Goldman, Ernst & Young, Morgan Stanley
-Ross total costs is about $53,000 a year
-Stern total costs is about $61,000 a year
-Ross has a campus and a traditional campus life/greek life etc
-Stern has no campus, no campus life but it has bars & clubs
-Easy to make friends at Ross
-Hard to make friends at Stern
-Ross is predominantly white males
-Stern is predominantly asian females
-Ross has more lenient grading and less competition, so people generally have better GPAs
-Stern is cutthroat and very competitive and there is a "stern curve" that causes a lot of stress and what not, but people are more prepared for the professional world</p>

<p>Questions:
1. If I want to go into ibanking or private equity in the future and make some big $$$ in the long run, would Stern or Ross be a better undergraduate option? </p>

<ol>
<li><p>Also, which would get me into a better graduate school? Because the graduate school is pretty important in the long run also I think</p></li>
<li><p>How much does GPA matter for undergraduate job hiring? If it isn't everything, is it at least pretty important? What would the other factors be? </p></li>
</ol>

<p>Concerns: If I decide to attend michigan, butttt:
1. If I don't get accepted into Ross, how hard would it be to get in during my Sophomore year? What grades will I need? What other aspects will they look at that would help me get in?</p>

<ol>
<li>If I apply to the Honors Program at LSA, how does that compare with the regular program? Will my GPA be lower at the Honors Program if it has harder classes/more competition? I know it's different for each person, but here's a description of me:</li>
</ol>

<p>Strengths: I think that I'm a good student: 93 in one of the top schools in the nation, 2300+ sats, many ec's that I effectively managed my time over, good at math (learning calc III already)</p>

<p>Weaknesses: Really burnt out from highschool, don't want to work TOO much, kind of want to chill/party but still keep a high GPA, not the greatest at writing</p>

<p>Which program should I attend? Honors LSA or Regular LSA? So anxious. Need answers!</p>

2

<p>“Weaknesses: Really burnt out from highschool, don’t want to work TOO much, kind of want to chill/party but still keep a high GPA, not the greatest at writing”</p>

<p>with this weakness you should be consideirng other careers. It’s not easy to get through the two year 80-90 hour average workweek of grunt work in IBD even for the determined person, and it will be virtualy impossible for someone who’s not that motivated and don’t want to work too much.</p>

<p>Is there any reason you want to do IBD/PE besides money? because there are many jobs where you can work less and make similar/better money (S&T/AM/HF), but you will actually need a great skill set.</p>

3

<p>what does S&T AM and HF stand for? and someone please answer my questions; i apologize for the long post but cmon…</p>

4

<p>and just because i say i’m burnt out doesn’t mean i can’t handle it…
-i can take on 80-90 hours of work; i took 4 ap’s last year and 5 ap’s this year on top of having tons of ec’s, and i have all 95+ for each one of my classes so I can obviously handle difficult classes with high workload as well… but theres a difference between what i CAN do and what i WANT to do…</p>

<p>-like who doesnt want to chill/party?</p>

<p>-writing isn’t a huge skill in business…</p>

<p>also, no. i’m all about the money. just like all the other ibankers and such. for what OTHER reasons would anyone go into the business world… lmao</p>

5

<p>B-school GPAs (especially in Ross) tend be really inflated. Ross even has it’s own GPA scale which is higher than LSA/Engineering’s. Most classes are curved to a B+ (3.4) but you really need to work hard and beat the competition to get above that. To get a top job coming out of Ross, who would probably need a 3.8+</p>

<p>It’s really not too hard to get into Ross after freshman year, especially if you are motivated and know what you are doing. About 40% of kids get in and not all are super smart. A lot of kids who apply aren’t even sure if they want to do business. The most important things they look for are GPA and leadership potential. Just take easy classes and get a 3.6+. Also, Ross likes frat kids for some reason (probably because of the leadership) so consider pledging a fraternity (social or professional) if you are that type of kid. You will get a lot of partying in that way too :). Otherwise, get involved in clubs and gain leadership positions. </p>

<p>Being in honors might help you a bit but you do need to take Great Books, which many people find annoying. However, you do get housing in the newly renovated South Quad, which is one of the best dorms on campus. The honors halls tend to be very social and SQ has an amazing location. Otherwise, you risk ending up being on North Campus, which is removed from the rest of the school and sucks in general.</p>

6

<p>For what you want I think Ross is the better choice. Don’t listen to the mostly antisocial population of the board, it’s definitely possible to have an active party life and still do really well in school. Plenty of people go out 3+ nights a week and still have high GPA’s in Ross and Engineering. Writing definitely is a huge skill in business though. Business writing is a whole different style which Ross teaches you. It’s all about conciseness and making every idea extremely clear and every word count. You’re gonna want to come up with a much better reason for why you want to go into iBanking though. Trust me, people go into it for many more reasons than the money. You have plenty to learn but if you work hard you can pull off everything you want at UM. Good luck.</p>

<p>PS…Don’t worry too much about applying to Ross after freshman year vs going straight into Stern. If you can’t get accepted regular admission into Ross, you very likely don’t have what it takes to go into iBanking either. Going straight into Stern in that case still wouldn’t get you there and would be be doing you any favors. Getting into Ross after freshman year is very doable if you focus on keeping your GPA up and get involved right away on campus. Networking from Ann Arbor vs. NYC isn’t a huge deterrent either, and actually it can be an advantage. A lot of employers will expect Stern students to have done internships during the fall or winter in addition to the summer, but obviously that’s not really possible for finance/consulting in Ann Arbor for the most part. UM has a huge alumni presence in NYC and Chicago who are always looking out for younger Wolverines.</p>

7

<p>@bluedevilsfan (or anyone): are frats open to anyone who wants to join or does pledging involve a selection process? </p>

<p>also, what kind of students get the 3.8+ GPAs and the top jobs? Are those the students who spend hours and hours everyday studying? and if you don’t get a 3.8+, which companies do you end up in… are you like screwed basically?</p>

<p>@maizeandblue21 (or anyone): what is even the point of internships during the school year? like they dont seem to accomplish anything other than getting your name out there to employers of the company you work for, but they waste so much time during the year that you have less time for academics and your own fun…</p>

8

<ol>
<li><p>The top 8 or so fraternities are very selective and then involve a semester long pledge process.</p></li>
<li><p>No, you’re not screwed in Ross without a 3.8. And in Ann Arbor most people don’t do internships during the school year.</p></li>
</ol>

9

<p>Is there race discrimination in these pledge processes? </p>

<p>Also, what are other reasons that people want to do Ibanking jw lol</p>

10

<p>You participate in this event called rush at the beginning of the semester. During this time, you will visit fraternity houses to learn more about them and they will see what kind of person you are. At the end of rush, a house will give you a bid if they like you. If you accept their bid, pledging starts. Pledging is a time in which you need to “prove” you’re worthy of membership in the fraternity. It can be very time consuming, especially for the top frats and can involve hazing. You get initiated near the end of the semester</p>

11

<p>Top fraternities tend to favor white males who are athletic but this isn’t always true. They are pretty much looking for “cool” people. There are also multicultural fraternities which you could join but they aren’t as prestigious</p>

12

<p>"-writing isn’t a huge skill in business…"</p>

<p>LOL</p>

<p>“also, no. i’m all about the money. just like all the other ibankers and such. for what OTHER reasons would anyone go into the business world… lmao”</p>

<p>I hope you aren’t so arrogant and naive to think that people go into business solely for money…</p>

<p>Do you even know what investment banking and private equity are?</p>

13

<p>@bluedevilsfan thank you</p>

<p>@Pat1120 please do tell the many reasons people would go into banking if it isn’t about the money</p>

14

<p>Depends on your tastes. You might want the big city. You might want a college town. I find it hard to concentrate in NYC. Too stressful. People in A2 are much nicer and more relaxed. Also UM has a more glorious history and people feel attached to it after they leave. NYU isn’t like that. But you may not care about that.</p>

<p>I’d go with LSA Honors. Don’t worry about the grades. They know everyone is concerned about that.</p>

15

<p>

This should be kind of concerning for Stern since a greater % of their students work in NYC than Ross due to proximity. </p>

<p>

It’s always about the money. If you major in mechE, it’s about engineering. If you major in Finance, it’s about money.
oh and the prestige-horing</p>

<p>

because NYU is still down the street from where most people work after college, but in terms of school unity and pride, yes</p>

16

<p>“It’s always about the money. If you major in mechE, it’s about engineering. If you major in Finance, it’s about money.
oh and the prestige-horing”</p>

<p>Come again? What in the hell are you talking about? I’m in Finance, I love Finance, its what I learned in school and what I still enjoy greatly. People go into Finance generally because they have an affinity. If they don’t, they certainly won’t do well enough to stay in the field, let alone make a lot of money at it.</p>

17

<p>Ross’ approach to grading is very different from Stern’s. The reason for this is simple; competition. Stern is an intensely competitive environment. They have over 600 students per class (compared to 400 at Ross), and the vast majority (like 80%) want jobs on Wall Street, compared to 30% of Ross students. In other words, at Stern, you have 500 or so Stern students competing for jobs in IBanking each year, compared to 100 from Ross. The vast majority of those Ross students will be placed, mostly with BB IBanks, while the majority of Stern students won’t. There is a reason why Stern does not release placement details. It is the only major BBA program not to do so. Let us face it, placing 50-100 students in BB IB when you have 400-500 students competing for them is not impressive!</p>

18

<p>@Alexandre I noticed that Ross indeed places very well, as their BBA statistics have all been released on their website, and the results are quite similar to yours. Last year, it seems about 40% of students enter in Finance, 16% into Investment Banking, and many people seem to get good jobs from the BB firms. However, I also heard Ross Students saying that only the very top of the class end up with good paying jobs from the top companies, while the rest don’t fare off as well, generally speaking… I am also aware that although many Ross students get offers from BB firms, not all of them are exactly on Wall Street, as some may be in other Northeast areas or in the Midwest or West… </p>

<p>Additionally, I heard that Stern is very competitive, yet I feel most schools tend to be pretty competitive anyways (Harvard, Wharton, Dartmouth, Duke MIT, Chicago, Stanford etc…). But contrary to your statistics, I read that only about 50-60% of students at Stern pursue Finance/Banking (according to Businessweek). I also see your point about Stern’s lack of placement details; however, if you have no other source for its placement data, where are you getting the statistic that “like 80%” of students there want to get into IB, and that only 50-100 out of those 400-500 students get a job at a BB firm? (As of right now, my only source is Business week). Please enlighten me with a more accurate site/source if I have been mislead by any information. </p>

19

<p>stjohnson, you ask valid questions. Since Stern does not release data, it is not possible to know for sure. But Businessweek is not listing the percentage of students who are applying for jobs, they are listing students who are placed in various industries. Just because only 50%-60% of Stern graduates are placed in finance jobs does not mean that all those seeking such jobs are placed. </p>

<p>Also, while all good universities have competitive students, that does not mean that grading is also competitive. Schools like Harvard, Dartmouth, Duke and Stanford are in fact known for being lenient when it comes to grading. MIT and Chicago are indeed tough, but then again, they are not famous for Wall Street placements as are Harvard, Dartmouth and Duke. </p>

<p>As for Ross BB placements, the vast majority are in fact front office Wall Street placements. Some are place in Chicago, but those are the exception rather than the rule. Also, I am not sure who told you that “only the very top of the class end up with good paying jobs from the top companies”. The evidence from Ross’s annual placement report shows that 25% graduates joined the following companies:</p>

<p>JP Morgan 16
Microsoft 9
Goldman Sachs 8
Accenture 6
IBM 6
Morgan Stanley 6
Boston Consulting Group 5
Cisco 5
Ford 4
General Motors 4
Kraft 4
Amazon 3
Bain 3
Citigroup 3
Lazard 2
McKinsey 2</p>

<p>That does not include all high profile, high-paying jobs mind you, only the most common ones. Most years, at least 1 Ross undergrad is placed in companies like Bank of America, UBS, Credit Suisse, BNP Paribas, Societe Generale, RBS, Rothchild, Blackstone, Blackrock, Nomura, Bank of New York Mellon, Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Northrup Grumman, Amgen, Eli Lilly, Pfizer, Stryker, Unilever, Procter and Gamble, L’Oreal, General Electric, Google, Sun Microsystems, Apple, Oracle, A.T. Kearney, Mercer, Oliver Wyman, etc… Companies like Kraft, Procter and Gamble and L’Oreal may not see all that sexy, but to those of us interested in Marketing, it does not get much better. </p>

<p>Altogether, I would say another 25% of Ross undergrads are placed in such companies. When half your class joins such companies as all the ones listed above, I would say that top jobs are not only offered to “the very top of the class”. It is in fact the bottom of the class that ends up at companies and organizations such as American Express, Deloitte, EY, PwC, Target, Teach For America, Wells Fargo etc…</p>

<p>There are two concerns I have about Stern:</p>

<ol>
<li>It is the only high profile BBA program that does not release a detailed placement report. To me, that is very suspicious. </li>
<li>Given its size (600/class) and the finance intensive focus of the school and of the students who are drawn to the program, competition to join BB IBanks from Stern is going to be overwhelming. </li>
</ol>

20

<p>“As for Ross BB placements, the vast majority are in fact front office Wall Street placements.”
That is not true. More like half from what I see. Quite a number of lower echelon Ross kids accept ops/treasury/credit risk/product control type of positions at BBs.
The lower tier Stern kid typically join lesser known boutiques in NYC (a lot of them only have the budget to recruit regionally), while the lower tier Ross kids would gladly accept a backoffice BB role (still better paid than your typical F500 and non-MBB consulting gigs).</p>