<p>I don't think you can generalize what kind of an engineer you will be, or how much you will learn, or how well you'll do professionally, based on your choice of school. Both Michigan and Michigan State are great, in general the differences between them will be far outweighed by the differences in the individual student's ambition, intellect, and talent for the field. As an engineer myself, just a little illustrative example (not intended to be a typical case!) Early in my career I worked under a program manager who happened to be an MSU grad. As I have said on other posts, he was one of the most impressive engineers I have ever met. Why? In short, because it was a very complex project both technically and logistically, and he knew and understood MORE about each and every aspect of the work than the other engineers and technicians who were focused only on the individual tasks! Later, I worked with an engineer who had graduated from Michigan and MIT. Nice guy. Smart guy. Executed a design (not as complex as my first example) with lots of severe problems. Left the company. Go figure.</p>
<p>MSU is more "popular" in Michigan. I saw that on some sort of ESPN fan map for the football game. UM is more "popular" worldwide. At some point the UM brand was #1 sports merchandise sold (maybe a a result of the Fab Five) but I think is is still a strong seller.</p>
<p>Academically UM is stronger, certainly in arts and sciences, law, medical. I don't know much about engineering except that it is difficult and a transfer out is not unheard of. If your back up career were hotel management, I'd say MSU hands down. If you're not sure, I'd say UM leaves more options open.</p>
<p>It's hardly "stupid to pick MSU" over UM. I have plenty of friends that did it, and from what they tell me, they're having an excellent experience at State. Why? The Honors College, the social scene, the people, the basketball games, the beautiful campus, and plenty of other things. MSU is tops if your in the HC, and the residential colleges are great too. And for certain managements, like Hotel Management, Communications(I can tell you that UM's Communication's program blows), Education, Political Science, and certain engineering programs, MSU is tops. And MSU offers some programs that you couldn't do at UM, like Geography and Video Game design. And other programs you might not get into At UM, like Business. You can't go wrong with MSU if you're looking for a well-rounded education (great sports, great academics (without too great a workload), beautiful people, beautiful campus, great name recognition, etc.,).</p>
<p>Best of all, as a Spartan, you don't have to deal with all the stuck-up upper-class kids that plague U-M. (sorry, but I go there and it's true)</p>
<p>And your football team is now...respectable. Props to MSU.</p>
<p>I think I might transfer to State :D</p>
<p>michiganman,
do you come across the "stuck-up upper-class kids" a lot? Do they take away from the enjoyment? I have heard others say this too, but didn't really take it to heart. I figured since it is such a big student body, you will have a FAR greater number of friendly students than arrogant snobs.</p>
<p>Also, since you are a student, how are the residence halls? I haven't had the opportunity to check any of them out.</p>
<p>Yeah go transfer to MSU. We don't need people like you at Michigan.</p>
<p>Michigan State is just an average school, reputation wise. At Michigan you'll be surrounded by smarter people and get a better education. Just ignore all those that are saying crap like "Michigan and Michigan State are both excellent school". I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings, but there is no way you can say "Michigan State" and "excellent" in the same sentence. UM is a top public university, MSU isn't even in the top 10. The reputation of a school is important, and unfortunately MSU doesn't have any. </p>
<p>People do chose MSU over UM, mostly due to financial reasons or the honors college. But if you can afford to go to both schools, which you should since you're in-state, I would use my brain and make the logical choice: UMich.</p>
<p>MightyNick - You are why I don't want to go to UM.</p>
<p>Michigan is a very fine school. One of the best in the nation. It is not somehow incomparable to MSU or any other school. And to say MSU is irreputable is laughable. Simply to make the Big Ten(and more importantly for Academics) the CIC you have to be a very fine school. The Times World Rankings(which I generally find worthless, but do measure production) put MSU in the top 100 in the world. Considering the tens of thousands of schools(more?) out there, that is pretty freaking 'reputable'.</p>
<p>Sure, it'll be pretty hard for me to be working for the fancy Investment Banking firm from MSU vs. Ross. But the offerings of Chicago are very well available.</p>
<p>Seriously, there are probably 15 kids at my HS who are in at UM or will be barring a freak result who don't have any ties to MSU, but are bugged THAT MUCH by that arrogance from people like you, and will likely end up at MSU HC.</p>
<p>If there wasn't this attitude, I would be locked in at UM, instead I'm applying to a ton of OOS schools.</p>
<p>How is lack of an exclusionary, superior attitude a reason to leave?</p>
<p>I'm going to bump this thread only once, then I will let it die. =)</p>
<p>Thanks for the responses so far.</p>
<p>Bennis, I will answer your question about the stuck up students. There are some on every campus! That's life. I know many wonderful students at U of M, and they have great friends. Most of my daughter's friends are at U of M, and they are enjoying their social lives. They aren't stuck up at all, and I doubt they'd waste their time with those who are. As you suspected, there are more than enough normal folk to provide you with a good pool of people you'd want to be around!</p>
<p>My daughter had no interest in a large school, so she never considered either UM or MSU. She has one friend whose parents chose MSU over UM for her because of MSU's almost full ride. The girl wasn't pleased, but she is actually enjoying it. She will major in some kind of science (prevet), she is in the HC, she has a job with a prof, and she likes her classes. A couple other friends turned down UM for other schools like Notre Dame, Duke, and even Grand Valley. The one who decided on GV just didn't like UM as much. Everyone is looking for something different, so it depends on whether or not you like the place.</p>
<p>The dorms my daughter's friends are in at UM seem to be in better shape than those her friends at MSU are in. That is a small sample, though, so I would say it depends on the luck of the draw. Neither school has "great" dorms (my daughter's school does, so we do have a basis for comparison!), but they aren't terrible, either.</p>
<p>Her friends at both schools like where they are & are happy. So decide what suits you best & take advantage of every opportunity available to you while you are there. That will be what is "best."</p>
<p>I would go to Umich, great engineering school.</p>
<p>
[quote]
michiganman,
do you come across the "stuck-up upper-class kids" a lot? Do they take away from the enjoyment?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yes, I run into stuck-up upper-class kids often. Remember that at least half of the UMich student body comes from six-figure households. If they're not stuck-up because they're rich, they're extremely arrogant because they attend a decent state school. </p>
<p>And yes, it does take away from the enjoyment, because working-class and middle-class students like me have to search long and hard to find down-to-earth people. If you enjoy hearing students talk about fashion, cars, grades, and that really "awesome party" that pales in comparison to ANY party at MSU, then you'll fit in at UMich perfectly.</p>
<p>Yes, you CAN find some down-to-earth people here, but they appear to be the minority.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Also, since you are a student, how are the residence halls? I haven't had the opportunity to check any of them out.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>MSU has better dorms that generally have better locations. </p>
<p>Don't get on North campus unless you're an engineer. The dorms themselves aren't terrible, but the location absolutely blows. Markeley sucks for anyone that isn't white. </p>
<p>But if you don't believe that UMich students aren't snobby, arrogant, and aggressive students, just read Mighty Nick's post -- he's your typical UM student, perpetually bashing State.</p>
<p>I'm bored, so I'll reply to him.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Yeah go transfer to MSU. We don't need people like you at Michigan.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Notice the phrase "people like you"...</p>
<p>You are right, Mighty Nick. I don't fit into a school full of arrogant jerks like you. I'll be glad to leave.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Michigan State is just an average school, reputation wise.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Nationally, MSU's and UMich's reputation are about the same because they're both based on sports. In elite academic circles UMich might have a better reputation. I say might, because those same elitist circles are just as likely to say UMich is still a public school that doesn't compare to any of the elite privates in the top 15.</p>
<p>
[quote]
At Michigan you'll be surrounded by smarter people and get a better education.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>What gives you that impression? Standardized test scores? For the class of 2010, the average ACT score of an enrolled student at UM was a 27. It might be a 28 for 2011. The average ACT score for a MSU honor's College student is at least above 30. Are you sure I'll be "surrounded by smarter people?</p>
<p>And due to the class of 2011's over enrollment, class selection is harder, and class sizes are bigger. I rarely get to interact with my professor outside of office hours. </p>
<p>None of that happens at MSU's Honor's College, or any of its Residential Colleges.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Just ignore all those that are saying crap like "Michigan and Michigan State are both excellent school". I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings, but there is no way you can say "Michigan State" and "excellent" in the same sentence. UM is a top public university, MSU isn't even in the top 10. The reputation of a school is important, and unfortunately MSU doesn't have any.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Most UMich students think like this. You hear constant MSU bashing all the time. Whenever I visit State, I don't hear about UM. The students don't care about UMich. But Wolverines sure can't shut up about the Spartans. </p>
<p>Expect to hear people calling State "East Lansing Community College", and joking about how Spartans can't read.</p>
<p>
[quote]
People do chose MSU over UM, mostly due to financial reasons or the honors college. But if you can afford to go to both schools, which you should since you're in-state, I would use my brain and make the logical choice: UMich.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Hmm...</p>
<p>I could attend a school with:
Small Residential Colleges, with small class sizes
A good academic reputation
Excellent sports team
A beautiful campus
One of the nation's premier public Honors Colleges
A down-to-earth student body</p>
<p>or I could attend a school with:
One Honor's *Program<a href="it's%20hardly%20a%20college">/i</a>
A great (not excellent, it's not top 15) reputation
Excellent sports team
Decent looking, but spread out campus
Snobby student body
Academic prestige</p>
<p>I think I'll use my brain and go with the first school.</p>
<p>michiganman, you need to figure out a way to meet more people! UM is a public school, and the majority of kids going there from MI's public schools are not from six figure income homes. I feel bad for you that you are only finding the idiots. I know so many great kids at UM ... even in north housing! :) Yeah, there are plenty of idiots around. You'll be a lot happier, though, if you can ditch the idiots & hang out where a better class of people hang (even if they might actually be lower class!). Have you checked into any clubs or organizations? You might find some nice, down to earth kids. And as an aside ... not all kids from six figure income homes are snobs who only care about (their parents') money.</p>
<p>Your comments about class selection, class size, etc. are important to note, though.</p>
<p>michiganman,</p>
<p>Where did you get that ACT score? Isn't that the 25th percentile you just named? That can't be the mean.</p>
<p>Mind you, I'm not some mindless U-M supporter (see my response upthread) but this number just isn't right. First, U-M doesn't release mean scores, so your source on that has me intrigued. Second, and more important, that's around the 25th percentile. It would be an extraordinary score distribution indeed if the mean and the 25th percentile were the same figure. U-M scores are distributed a little more normally than that.</p>
<p>To hoedown UMich is back-up school for a lot of high-end applicants. That skews its numbers. The mid-50th percentile for the ENROLLED class of 2011 is probably 25-30. Maybe 26-31 at most. </p>
<p>A 27 is the median or average or something. A 28 is better than average for enrolled students.</p>
<p>To kelsmom: I've met down-to-earth people, but they are in the minority. The idiot's numbers are LEGION. My roommate is a pretty well-off guy. Really nice too. He's a rarity.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Nationally, MSU's and UMich's reputation are about the same because they're both based on sports. In elite academic circles UMich might have a better reputation.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That's one of the most BS statements I've read in my entire life. Michigan might have a better reputation? I've got news for you: IT DOES. Michigan may be ranked 25th nationally, but it is definitely comparable to HYPS, MIT and Caltech. It's the second best public university in the nation, and incredibly prestigious internationally (ranked 11th by Newsweek). It's Engineering program is definitely top 5, and Business is top 3. </p>
<p>A word of advice. Stop talking crap and stop trying to convince someone else to chose a clearly inferior school when he can easily go to a better school. </p>
<p>And thank you, but I'd rather go to a university with stuck up and arrogant people that are at least serious about academics than go to a university with students that are so laid back and have no direction in life.</p>
<p>Oh, yes MightyNick, you are so right. Michigan State students really don't have any direction in life. All of them are completely inferior to everyone at U of M, the 2nd best public school the nation. Actually they're tied for 3rd, and should be 5th considering how hard it is to get into UCLA and UNC-CH from out of state. And top 5 engineering? Maybe top 10 at best. But who cares, right? Prestige is everything, so yeah, go to U of M and hang out with all the douchebags, like MightyNick.</p>
<p>You're an idiot, bosox097. You have no idea what you're talking about. Michigan engineering is definitely top 5. Just check out the rankings before calling me a douchebag.</p>
<p>
[quote]
That's one of the most BS statements I've read in my entire life.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Speaking of BS statements...</p>
<p>
[quote]
Michigan might have a better reputation? I've got news for you: IT DOES. Michigan may be ranked 25th nationally, but it is definitely comparable to HYPS, MIT and Caltech.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This is laughable. Elitist more...elitist than you would laugh at that statement. Michigan is in no way comparable to HYPS, MIT, Caltech, or even Northwestern. It's comparable to Berkeley. On the graduate level (and graduate and professional education is where Michigan really shines) Michigan is comparable to the best of the best. But for undergrad, Michigan is only really stellar for business and engineering. That's. It.</p>
<p>
[quote]
It's the second best public university in the nation, and incredibly prestigious internationally (ranked 11th by Newsweek). It's Engineering program is definitely top 5, and Business is top 3.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Your point? McGill is incredibly prestigious internationally, but I don't want to go there. And so what if it IS prestigious internationally? Brown, Dartmouth, Princeton, Vanderbilt, and Emory aren't prestigious internationally, but at the undergraduate level, they trump Michigan easily.</p>
<p>More important: Why do I care what the Chinese think if I'm staying in America?</p>
<p>
[quote]
A word of advice.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Wolverines can't give advice.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Stop talking crap
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Take your own advice.</p>
<p>
[quote]
and stop trying to convince someone else to chose a clearly inferior school when he can easily go to a better school.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>If only Michigan was clearly superior to MSU, but as it stands its Communications department is pathetic, it doesn't have hospitality business, and it lacks the major choices that MSU has. It doesn't have the residential colleges either. Or the beautiful people.</p>
<p>Think I'd take MSU.</p>
<p>
[quote]
And thank you, but I'd rather go to a university with stuck up and arrogant people that are at least serious about academics
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That's the biggest generalization ever. There are plenty of people that aren't serious about academics at all. Don't fool yourself, Nicky: Michigan's all about football :)</p>
<p>It's not hard for a slacker to get into a school that admits half of all applicants. </p>
<p>
[quote]
than go to a university with students that are so laid back and have no direction in life.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Which part of Honors College don't you understand.</p>
<p>err MightyNick...i've also noticed that your grammar is pretty f'ed up.</p>
<p>"stop trying to convince someone else to chose a clearly inferior school"</p>
<p>if i remember correctly, it's 'choose' not chose..and that's not the only mistake. i can take a hint if you're saying you're typing "email" style like ttyl, brb, gtg, i c u..etc..but you gotta remember they still have correct grammar. Makes me wonder how the "2nd best public school in the nation' with such 'high standards' and 'hard admission rates (47%--->comparable to HYPM rates? LOL)' accepted...YOU.
Just cause a school has richer people doesn't mean that they're more motivated academically...</p>
<p>Although one of my top choices is UMich...i'm actually starting to have doubts since if this is the way students are going to act when i get there...then i'd rather go somewhere else.</p>
<p>I'm just hoping that you're one out of a million with an attitude like that.</p>
<p>
[quote]
To hoedown UMich is back-up school for a lot of high-end applicants. That skews its numbers. The mid-50th percentile for the ENROLLED class of 2011 is probably 25-30. Maybe 26-31 at most. </p>
<p>A 27 is the median or average or something. A 28 is better than average for enrolled students.
[/quote]
Not sure where you got your numbers. Care to cite your source?</p>
<p>According to U-M published data, the mid-50% ACT for ENROLLED students are:
(Fall 2005) 26-31
(Fall 2006) 27-31</p>
<p>p.s. Those of us who's been around this forum know better than to argue with hoedown regarding Michigan admission stats.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Although one of my top choices is UMich...i'm actually starting to have doubts since if this is the way students are going to act when i get there...then i'd rather go somewhere else.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yeah, you should base your college choice entirely upon how people behave on this forum. Smart. You sound like a typical Spartan. You'd fit in there perfectly.</p>
<p>I don't know if you've seen it, but we wear the "Harvard - Michigan of the East" shirts here. Arrogant? Yes. Is the arrogance justified? Yes. President JFK (who was a Harvard graduate himself) said that btw. Also, you'll find no school that is better than Michigan in both sports and academics.</p>