Michigan State or University of Michigan

College Search & Selection
61

<p>Michigan absolutely does not inflate its numbers. Every freshman who submits an ACT is counted in the ACT numbers we report. We do not report means. We report the midquartiles. Five years of data is available at the site I'll post below.</p>

<p>Other schools may inflate their numbers. I don't know. But let me be very clear on this: Michigan does not inflate test scores. </p>

<p><a href="http://sitemaker.umich.edu/obpinfo/files/umaa_freshprof.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://sitemaker.umich.edu/obpinfo/files/umaa_freshprof.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I appreciate your describing the ACT report, but it didn't give you a mean/average. Or even a median! More importantly, I wonder what that report really says. What ACT has is information on everyone in a state or region or at a high school who sent scores to a school. It doesn't have information about their admission outcomes. Medical and Law schools have a centralized clearinghouse for such information, but undergraduate schools don't--not with ACT or anyone else.</p>

<p>U-M does work with ACT on certain research projects, but we do not regularly send them lists of enrolled students. If we did, I cannot see why ACT would use any such data to send specialized score reports to high schools informing them of where an individual test-taker fell relative to our freshman class. </p>

<p>I don't want to step into the middle of what seems an increasingly ugly fight about "Who's better" or how selective Michigan is or whether the students who enroll are a bunch of wealthy, arrogant dolts. But on the ACT mean issue, your number is wrong and this report, whatever it was, misled you.</p>

62

<p>For those of you that say UM is the obvious choice, is your only basis for determining academic superiority the US News rankings?? What makes Michigan better? Is it the quality of instruction far better than at MSU? Is it just the fact that the students are, on average, more focused on their academics than the average MSU student may be.</p>

<p>I think that MSU has a much nicer campus. I like the suburban setting. I don't like the whole, north, central, south campus situation at UM. The campus environment is one thing that one can become accustomed to though. I don't want to base my decision solely on which campus I prefer.</p>

<p>When it comes to research, I know that both schools do a lot of it. Both say that they promote undergraduate research, and that is something that I want to take advantage of. Because UM is such a highly regarded graduate level institution, I would assume (nothing more than that) that the graduate students have the priority when it comes to research. Can any of you shed light on the research side of things?</p>

<p>Thanks</p>

63

<p>undergrad for msu. then grad for mu. save money and employers don't care about undergrad</p>

64

<p>yeah, if undergrad didn't matter, we'd all be going to second/third tier universities and saving money right?</p>

65

<p>
[quote]
Since it says "at college" I'd assume it would be enrolled students. I don't think that it would be far fetched for ACT to know the score distribution at schools that accept its test.

[/quote]

Just use some common sense. How would ACT know? Did you report back to ACT which school you decide to matriculate? The college certainly would not do that. Besides, even U of M does not have the complete enrollment data until after classes start in the fall. When did your roommate get his ACT school score report? ACT will only know (same as you and I) when Michigan releases its Common Data Set for that year.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I don't see you arguing about MSU's ranking...

[/quote]

I didn't comment on MSU because I don't know as much about MSU ... only that MSU's mid-50% ACT range is 22-27 as reported on its Common Data Set.</p>

<p>
[quote]
The instate rejection rate is much lower than OOS rejection rate. At least half of all instate students that apply get in. It might be even higher, maybe sixty percent.

[/quote]

Where did you get that info? Care to share your source?
You can just do the math. What we know: about 65% of the 5500 freshman class is targetted for in-state, out of about 10,000+ applicants. Assuming a yield > 75%, the in-state acceptance is 50% or less.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Most UMich applicants have a 3.6+ and a 26+

[/quote]

Most of the low end applicants are rejected. The enrolled students have significantly higher stats; the admitted pool is even higher.</p>

<p>Your numbers are way off. According to U of M internal published data for 2006 enrolled freshman class:</p>

<p>mid-50% UW GPA: 3.60-3.90
mid-50% ACT: 27-31</p>

<p>Your in-state range is way off too. Again you can do the math, only 35% of the enrolled students are from OOS.</p>

<p>
[quote]
There's not much of a difference between 25th percentile and 30th.

[/quote]

It's significant since you claimed that 27 ACT is the mean/average and 28 is above average for enrolled students.</p>

66

<p>I don't know, bennis--it sounds like you like MSU better. When you have two good choices, who is to say it is foolish to to let it come down to the feel of the campus? I think you're smart to find out more about the issues of research and the like, and maybe someone is going to come up with convinving evidence that you'll be much better off at U-M.....but I think ultimately a student like you could excel either place, and excel in your professional life afterward with either school named on your undergrad degree.</p>

67

<p>Nick, can you explain to me why The University of Michigan is the better choice? From what I can see, people just look at the rankings and think "Oh my god <em>insert school</em> is ranked # on the US News rankings! It beats <em>insert another school</em> by 20 spots, so it is definitely a better school to attend." So far michiganman is the only one to actually back up his opinions with examples.</p>

<p>I don't mean to sound like I have made up my mind, because I haven't. Also, I didn't intend for this to start an argument, I just want to learn more about each school.</p>

68

<p>I feel that Michigan State is the superior undergraduate university. State has a visible commitment to undergraduate education. State gives a damn about its undergraduates, hence the recent creation of a residential college and announcement of another one. Yes, I plan to transfer to State. Not because UMich is a bad school, but because I like the campus more, its strong in my potential majors, and its commitment to undergraduate education. No, it may not be as prestigious as UMich. I don't care. I don't need prestige.</p>

<p>If UMich has higher numbers that's great. I'm not going to argue over them. Attend UMich for a few months and you'll come to realize that they don't mean much. Wolverines aren't any smarter than Spartans. They are, on average, richer and maybe a bit more studious, but they definitely aren't smarter. </p>

<p>And yes, I do believe that Kalamazoo College provides a better education than UMich. In fact, I'd say, excluding MSU's residential colleges, K-Zoo offers the best undergraduate education in the state. It's a rigorous severely underrated liberal arts college. That school's hard. The classes are at least as hard as UMich's but they're more fast-paced. Do not underestimate K-Zoo.</p>

<p>bennis, visit both colleges as many times as you can, and consider other schools too. You probably can't go wrong. Good luck. I'm sure you'll make the right choice.</p>

69

<p>Well, I would pick K over UM! But that's just me. Everyone is different.</p>

<p>For what it's worth, Kettering U is ranked highly for various engineering programs. But no football team ... guess it's not worth discussing, eh?</p>

70

<p>
[quote]
And yes, I do believe that Kalamazoo College provides a better education than UMich. In fact, I'd say, excluding MSU's residential colleges, K-Zoo offers the best undergraduate education in the state. It's a rigorous severely underrated liberal arts college. That school's hard. The classes are at least as hard as UMich's but they're more fast-paced. Do not underestimate K-Zoo.

[/quote]

H and I are Michigan alums and our S is currently a sophomore at K College. We generally would agree with michiganman. In addition to academic rigor, fast-paced courses on the quarter system, profs-no TA's, small class sizes, excellent advising, and total undergraduate focus, students must pass comprehensive exams in their major and complete a senior thesis project in order to graduate which were not required of H and I as undergrads.</p>

71

<p>bennis, the USNWR rankings for engineering are a subjective opinion of academics. IMO, these academics know better than you or I whether or not U Mich is better than MSU. </p>

<p>If costs are the same, why not go to a school that has a better reputation academically for the field you're interested?</p>

<p>All the talk about undergrad vs. grad is irrelevent, since grad school is at least 4 years into the future.</p>

72

<p>
[quote]
bennis, the USNWR rankings for engineering are a subjective opinion of academics. IMO, these academics know better than you or I whether or not U Mich is better than MSU.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I don't think so since those "academics" use a formula that's heavily reliant on prestige. You can't use an equation to gauge a school's value. UMich looks better when MSU's UNIQUE PROGRAMS and UNDERGRADUATE FOCUS aren't factored into the equation.</p>

<p>Besides, how many of those academics have attended multiple colleges? Very few. They can't judge a college any better than anyone else. Give a person the information of the institution and let them figure it out for themselves, I say!</p>

73

<p>OP-- As was implied in your original post as well as subsequent posts here, I'm not seeing U-M in-state as being dramatically more expensive than MSU in-state until you reach upper division status. And, university housing can be ditched after your first year so you'd be able to control/reduce your housing/food costs. </p>

<p>Current in-state rates on each school's website:
U-M-- Lower Division Engineering/2 semesters: $10,988
Upper Division Engineering/2 semesters: $14,252
Room/Board: $8190
Full</a> Term Tuition and Fees</p>

<p>MSU-- Undergraduate freshmen/2 semesters: $8400
Room/Board: $6572
Tuition</a> and Fees | Michigan State University Office of Admissions</p>

74

<p>
[quote]
If you want to do Chem. Engineering I'd say MSU. (post 19)

[/quote]

DSC,
I'm curious why you say that. Are you saying that MSU has a better ChE program, or simply that Michigan's ChE program is bad? Either way, I'd like to have more specifics. I presume you have first hand info...</p>

75

<p>UM: $19178
MSU: $14972
Difference: $4206</p>

<p>I know that in state honors college members at MSU get $2000 per year, which would bring the difference to $6206. To me, $6200 is a lot of money. I just need to decide whether the benefits of attending UM would warrent the extra expenses. Do you think it would be likely for me to recieve any merit scholarship money from either UM or MSU?<br>
Do you know if, on average, an engineering graduate from UM has a higher starting salary than an MSU grad? I don't really know if it is possible to find that out. I have looked, but have found little to no helpful information.</p>

76

<p>I was accepted to U-M College of Engineering today =)</p>

77

<p>^ Congrats!</p>

78

<p>bennis- I don't think you'll find much data on starting salaries vs. name on diploma. But my experience in industry tells me that there won't be any difference in the salary offers for UM vs. MSU grads.</p>

79

<p>
[quote]
DSC,
I'm curious why you say that. Are you saying that MSU has a better ChE program, or simply that Michigan's ChE program is bad? Either way, I'd like to have more specifics. I presume you have first hand info...

[/quote]
</p>

<p>My understanding from my relatives(multiple in engineering at both UM and MSU) is that UM is best in Mech and Electrical, and anything science related - go MSU. Chem Engineering is supposed to be very strong at MSU, UM is nothing to laugh at, but not as good preparation. Not sure what the official rankings are, but my cousin who majored in ChemEng looked for a long time at both, but went to MSU due to it being a standout program, while UM's program seemed to be more dependent on the rest of the department boosting it up. Generally Engineering at UM is better though.</p>

<p>Sciences are better at MSU, Physics is even #2 in the land(behind MIT). The cyclotron is amazing, and boosts that. A massive part of the Honors College is physics and other 'hard science' majors, as those kids are traditionally test score/grades kids, and also great programs.</p>

<p>This is second hand, but I have 4 uncles who went to one of these 2 for Engineering, 3 cousins in Engineering, and 2 more that looked at it and ended up in Physics.</p>

<p>Both are very fine schools. Both have major flaws in my opinion - An inferiority complex at MSU - Arrogance at UM. Just watch a football game at MSU and listen to the fans if you want to see where my 'inferiority complex' comment comes from. And compare the UM tour and efforts to recruit students to those from ANY other school, or talk to the UM-to-be group at any HS about colleges to see what I mean about arrogance. These are not universals of course, but certainly occur more often than I would like.</p>

<p>On the compare tours to any school, I toured over 20 schools(everyone from Stanford and Cornell to Pitt and MSU), UM was worst hands down, full of arrogance, superiority, and not caring. 2 tour guides for 50+ people. Mention that 'it is a challenge for anyone to get in, so it isn't for most people'(after Stanford says how the vast majority should get in, but unfortunately they don't have room...blah blah blah - this is a place we hope you like, and we hope you come here), sure that's a shallow thing to get bent out of shape about but it reinforced the attitude I have gotten from many(not all) current, past, and future UM students.</p>

80

<p>^ USNWR Chemical Engineering Undergraduate Rankings:</p>

<p>1 Massachusetts Inst. of Technology<br>
2 University of California–Berkeley *
3 Univ. of Minnesota–Twin Cities *
4 Stanford University (CA)
5 Univ. of Wisconsin–Madison *
6 California Institute of Technology<br>
7 Princeton University (NJ)
8 U. of Illinois–Urbana-Champaign *
9 University of Texas–Austin *
10 University of Delaware *
11 Georgia Institute of Technology *
11 University of Michigan–Ann Arbor <em>
13 Cornell University (NY)
14 Carnegie Mellon University (PA)
15 Purdue Univ.–West Lafayette (IN)</em>
16 Pennsylvania State U.–University Park *
17 Texas A&M Univ.–College Station *
17 Univ. of California–Santa Barbara *
19 North Carolina State U.–Raleigh *
20 Rice University (TX)
20 University of Pennsylvania<br>
22 Rensselaer Polytechnic Inst. (NY)
23 Iowa State University *
23 Northwestern University (IL)
23 University of Notre Dame (IN)
23 University of Virginia *
23 University of Washington *
* denotes a public school.</p>