<p>Since you are LDS, you might be interested in this recent thread. I’m not LDS, but I think it is important to choose a college that supports a student’s religious preferences, as well as meeting their academic needs.</p>
<p><a href=“BYU or Ivy League - Brigham Young University - College Confidential Forums”>http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/brigham-young-university/1362845-byu-or-ivy-league.html</a></p>
<p>Pennylane, you beat me to it. VW1965 - It’s important that your daughter go to a school that does support your religious culture and that might be a bit hard to find outside of Utah. My daughter goes to a very accepting school and her roommate Freshman year was LDS. This poor girl was unhappy in so many ways that she became more religious and transferred after Freshman year. If your daughter’s friends are going to local colleges so they can get their degree while planning their weddings it might create a void for your daughter and she might become very homesick. I don’t know you or your family, I’m just trying to share something my daughter experienced her Freshman year. (BTW, we’re Jewish and I made sure any school my younger daughter attended had more than ten Jewish kids and a Hillel of some sort. Both my daughters wound up in the midwest and, being from NY, that was enough culture shock for them!)</p>
<p>That being said, I think applying to Barnard instead of Columbia is a smart thought. It’s right across the street from Columbia and classes are shared and I believe the degree says Columbia University, Barnard College, but I’m not sure. It might be easier to get into. I also am not such a naysayer for other top schools - your daughter’s background, being from Utah, etc. offers some diversity for many schools and that might be an edge.</p>
<p>Good luck!</p>
<p>I would encourage your daughter to visit Barnard - it’s an amazing place, and ED acceptance is over 40%. Here is an LDS contact she can reach out to.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.columbia.edu/cu/ldssa/prospective-students.html”>http://www.columbia.edu/cu/ldssa/prospective-students.html</a></p>
<p>“call or email Emma Miller (<a href=“mailto:ejm2177@columbia.edu”>ejm2177@columbia.edu</a>; 801.856.0733) to set something up, be it an overnight visit, a visit to church, a Skype session with LDS students, etc. It is a unique and wonderful experience to be a member of the LDS church at Columbia University; we would love to see our numbers grow here.”</p>
<p>Yeah, she doesn’t want to go to BYU. She doesn’t like the campus vibe. I think she could definitely handle a school outside of Utah as long as there were some other LDS students at the school.
Arwarw - thank you!! This is an excellent resource.
Thanks to everyone else too!</p>
<p>I second hop’s suggestions. Syracuse’s Newhouse is a top journalism school. My DD is entering Syracuse next fall as a dual major in Communications and Business at Newhouse and Whitman. Ithaca and Emerson also have strong Communications schools. Good luck to your daughter.</p>
<p>I encourage the OP to be sure his daughter is comfortable with the Mormon community on campus wherever she goes. Out of curiosity, I googled this:
<a href=“Schools Where Mormons Feel Comfortable | CollegeXpress”>http://www.■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■/lists/list/schools-where-mormons-feel-comfortable/485/</a> Now it is just a list so it needs to be checked out, but there is some overlap with the test optional colleges.</p>
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<p>Raising her scores could help tip her applications to some colleges, although that still might not be enough to make her competitive for a school like Princeton. Without any “hook”, high stats are necessary but not sufficient for the tip-top schools. However, piling on more “activities” may be counter-productive. By March of Junior year, there is not much time left to become a star performer or demonstrate significant leadership … although a few applicants may be interesting enough to succeed without that. </p>
<p><a href=“Want to Get into Harvard? Spend More Time Staring at the Clouds: Rethinking the Role of Extracurricular Activities in College Admissions - Cal Newport”>http://calnewport.com/blog/2010/02/18/want-to-get-into-harvard-spend-more-time-staring-at-the-clouds-rethinking-the-role-of-extracurricular-activities-in-college-admissions/</a> </p>
<p>Anyone can work at being more “interesting”. Admission to Princeton may not be part of the pay-off, but many other good schools with decent aid could be in play.
<a href=“http://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/paying-for-college/articles/2013/09/18/colleges-that-claim-to-meet-full-financial-need-2014”>http://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/paying-for-college/articles/2013/09/18/colleges-that-claim-to-meet-full-financial-need-2014</a></p>
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Do you think her EC’s are good enough, if she can get her scores up? Are her scores the main thing holding her back?"
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<p>The kind of EC’s that top schools want to see can’t be added at a late date. And they shouldn’t be run of the mill either. Everyone belongs to clubs, starts a club, is an officer in a club, plays a sport, etc. Those don’t help with the down-selection process.</p>
<p>For a non-hooked applicant, scores and ranking are the first parts of the down-selection process. Your D is very weak in both. While people often say “top 10% is needed,” if you’re unhooked, then likely top 5% is needed. Many ivy kids were the Vals and Sals of their schools. She likely wouldn’t make it past the very initial down-select process with a 15% ranking and a projected 27 ACT. </p>
<p>(That’s why I don’t recommend wasting a lot of time and money on too many apps to ivy-type schools. Unless you’re low income, you’re going to have to pay for all those apps, test scores to be sent, CSS Profiles to be sent, etc )</p>
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she has two schools in-state she’d still be happy at but she’d feel like she was settling for less I think.</p>
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<p>What are those two schools? Univ of Utah? or ???</p>
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<p>Maybe I’m reading too much into this but it sounds like your D wants to go to these schools simply to say that she’s going to one of these schools. Her stats would put her at the bottom of these schools, meaning that she may end up being one of the lowest performing students in her classes (if accepted). Wouldn’t that become very frustrating? Her classmates will be the 2250+ SAT/33+ ACT students who were the Vals and Sals at their high schools. </p>
<p>It’s a good thing that you’re looking for match and (financial) safety schools. However, nearly all apps take a lot of time and money, so you need to talk to your D about budgeting time and money for this process. If she spends all her time on top schools, then she’s less likely going to have any time left to give the match/safety schools her best shot. You might want to devise some kind of agreement that she applies to a match school or a financial safety school for every top school she applies to. And she should probably have at least 3 financial safety schools.</p>
<p>VW, I agree with mom2collegekids – your daughter sounds like a very capable young woman, but she does not have the profile of a student who will be admitted to an elite college. You might find it valuable to get some books about elite college admissions as a reality check. As the parent of a Barnard grad, I think some posters have a misconception of Barnard’s admissions standards – while it is a more holistic process than Columbia’s, they still are looking for students with standout characteristics. It’s not any one item – a student can be “well lopsided” – i.e., if she is outstanding in some areas, the ad com may overlook some relative weaknesses. Excellent grades and a top rank can counterbalance weaker test scores. </p>
<p>You can also get a reality check by looking at the stats of admitted students in respective college threads. There is a misconception that ED admission is easier – that isn’t the case for a student with weaker academic credentials and no hooks. Colleges do like to use ED to lock in recruited athletes and full pay students, and it’s also a great way to lock in students who have strong academics and are clearly the type of students they would want to admit. But it makes no sense to offer an ED spot to a student with iffy credentials (from the school’s perspective) – and in any case it is courting disaster to apply ED to a college when you need a significant amount of financial aid. The college’s idea of “meeting full need” may be very different from yours. And big city colleges come with their own added expenses – NYC is very expensive, I doubt my daughter could have managed there without her bartending job. </p>
<p>Please don’t follow any advice that involves changing your daughter to fit the schools: that is, she shouldn’t enroll in a calculus class she is unready for or try to load up her time with EC’s to impress a college. It won’t work, your daughter will have a miserable senior year, and her grades may suffer. </p>
<p>Do also consider finances. You are right that the elite schools are the ones that offer the best need-based financial aid - but that only helps those who are admitted. You may actually get better aid offers from a school that does not meet full need for all students, but combines need-based aid with merit aid; that is, a school that leverages its financial aid dollars to favor students with strong academic records. But your daughter will need to target schools where she is a strong candidate for admission to qualify for those aid dollars. A good starting point would be the Colleges that Change Lives list: <a href=“http://www.ctcl.org/”>http://www.ctcl.org/</a> </p>
<p>If your daughter wants to attend an out-of-state college – check the western undergraduate exchange - see <a href=“Save On College Tuition | Western Undergraduate Exchange (WUE)”>http://www.wiche.edu/wue</a> - that provides a large list of public schools in 15 states that she might consider. </p>
<p>“But it makes no sense to offer an ED spot to a student with iffy credentials (from the school’s perspective)” </p>
<p>I agree. As I said, the OP’s D would need to get her ACT composite score up a bit. I think at least within Barnard’s midrange of (28–32). Her top 15% rank may be adequate (or not) depending on her school profile. Then, provided essays and recommendations are strong, maybe ED could be the extra push needed to get in.
Of course, Barnard is a tough admit, and they are seeking outstanding young women.</p>
<p>As another poster here suggested, I think the OP’s daughter’s geographic location and religion might be interesting to a school like Barnard. </p>
<p>Barnard is the most selective women’s college in the country. VW’s daughter might look at Smith, Mt. Holyoke, or Bryn Mawr for an alternative – the academic quality and standards at all of the seven sisters is strong, but admission rates are higher. </p>
<p>Keep in mind that OP specifically asked for a suggestions for “slight” reach or a match. So that’s what I am trying to give her.</p>
<p>Although she doesn’t seem excited about BYU, I’ve found that it is common for high school students to not be as intrigued with their familiar in state colleges as the ones they don’t know as much about. If they are at the top of the class, like your D, they may be concerned that other students like them won’t be there, but they are. I suggest she also apply to BYU, and possibly other in state choices, and spend as much time looking at what might fit her there as she looks at other colleges. The application process determines the real choices- at spring of senior year, and once the options are considered, the in state ones might be the best.</p>
<p>calmom, Smith, Mt. Holyoke, and Bryn Mawr are great schools, but OP had expressed an interest in NYC and not necassarily women’s colleges so that’s why I suggested Barnard as one possible reach school for his D.</p>
<p>“If they are at the top of the class, like your D”</p>
<p>While top 15% is good, it’s not “top of the class”.</p>
<p>I think Mt Holyoke is a good idea, but check to see if there are other LDS students and nearby church.</p>
<p>15% is likely adequate at a top-notch prep or magnet school, but maybe not so much at an average school.</p>
<p>Does your D’s school have Naviance?</p>
<p>In addition to Fordham and Barnard, Furman, Ithaca, Syracuse, and Agnes Scott I also suggest</p>
<p>American University (DC - high match)
Denison University (OH) - match
DePaul University (IL) - match
DePauw University (IN) - match
Duquesne University ¶ - match
Elon University (NC - match)
Fairfield University (CT) - match
Lawrence University (WI) - low reach
Marist College (NY) - match
Marquette University (WI) - match
Providence College (RI) - match</p>
<p>If she wants some less reachy reaches to work for/get the test scores up for, I might suggest Bucknell, Lehigh, Villanova, Northeastern, Holy Cross, Trinity College (low reach), </p>
<p>arwarw, I’m pretty familiar with Barnard’s admission practices, having followed this for 10 years +. </p>
<p>Based on the info that the OP provided, the daughter is unlikely to be admitted to Barnard. Two more points on the ACT or AP Calculus won’t help, because Barnard and other elite colleges are looking at the big picture. There may be other factors that haven’t been mentioned and I would be happy to answer questions that the OP has by PM. </p>
<p>But again, the OP was looking for “slight” reach or match colleges - Barnard is still is a big reach. Probably a better way to spend application fee money than Columbia - but I think it’s doing a disservice to the OP to give an inaccurate picture of admission prospects. </p>
<p>If the student really wants a college in NYC, then Fordham would be a better option. If being near NYC is acceptable (even in a suburban or rural area), then she might consider Bard. </p>
<p>If she is looking for strong academics and need-based financial aid, it might make sense to focus on a different geographical region – an LAC like Grinnell might be a much better bet. </p>
<p>I’d note that the OP did correct the class standing – the daughter is in the top 10% of her class. I think that the OP’s daughter can get into many excellent colleges. Here’s a link to a post with a good list of schools that promise to meet full need:
<a href=“Schools that are considered to be on Ivy League level for undergrad? - #10 by tk21769 - College Search & Selection - College Confidential Forums”>Schools that are considered to be on Ivy League level for undergrad? - #10 by tk21769 - College Search & Selection - College Confidential Forums;
<p>I think that the OP should try to find some schools with admission rates of about 35%-55% to develop a reasonable list of match or likely admission schools. The daughter has a solid academic record and should be admitted at many colleges – she just needs to develop a more realistic list. </p>
<p>It’s still early – it’s quite possible that the daughter’s focus on the top reaches simply reflects lack of information about other colleges and alternatives. </p>
<p>I’ll defer to you calmom. I’m not very familiar with Barnard admissions. But I have to say I did recently visit Barnard with my daughter, and I was utterly blown away by that college and what it has to offer. I guess I was just a little over eager to share that with the OP.</p>
<p>I just thought given a 3.8 GPA, top 10% of the class, her community and church involvement, having a test scores that could possibly be improved to get solidly within the mid 50% range and being from the midwest and Mormon MIGHT put the OP’s D within reach of admission to Barnard; provided, of course, she really understood herself and Barnard and the fit, and was able to articulate that well to admissions. </p>
<p>I agree, Barnard is an excellent school and I am very glad that my daughter had the opportunity to attend. And I don’t want to imply that the lower ACT test scores would preclude admission. It’s just that the student would need counterbalancing strengths. My daughter had weak test scores and a high school transcript that was weak on math & sciences – but she had big strengths in other areas The school is not entirely out of reach for the OP’s daughter – it’s just a high reach. From what the OP posted, the daughter sounds like a “BWRK” – “bright well rounded kid”. For the kids who have grades in the top 5% of their class & upper range test scores, that’s probably enough to get into a lot of colleges. But at a “most selective” school like Barnard the top 10%, 28 ACT student really needs some sort of standout quality in another area, preferably something that their target school values. OP’'s daughter may have those traits, but OP didn’t set them out in the post. A diversity factor like religion or home state isn’t enough either. </p>
<p>Mid-50% range doesn’t make a “match” at the most selective colleges – it is fine for colleges that have a somewhat higher admission rate. That’s why I suggest a school like Grinnell. Grinnell offers strong academics, gives great financial aid – takes 35% of its applicants… and happens to be in Iowa. US News ranks it at #17 – compared to #32 for Barnard (which accepts ~23% of applicants). I don’t agree with the US News rankings – I think Barnard’s low ranking is based on a formula that fails to take the shared resources of Columbia into account - but the point is that there are plenty of well-regarded colleges that would be good matches for the OP’s daughter. If the d. really would like east coast, then Smith is #20 on the US News list and accepts about 42% of applicants, For a more urban environment, there’s Macalester - #24 according to US News, accepting roughly 37% of applications (still kind of reachy, but a better bet than Barnard).</p>
<p>I mean, if colleges chose students solely on stats – which of course they don’t – then every student in the 50% midrange would get rejected from Barnard – it’s simple math – if the school only accepts 23% of its applicants, then the middle 50 range would be below the cutoff. Of course that is not how they select -they look at the big picture – but you’ve got to assume that the applicants in the top quartile are at a decided advantage over the mid-range group, and that’s not going to leave a lot of spots for the rest. </p>
<p>I understand the draw of NYC – my daughter definitely had her heart set on NY – but I don’t think that’s a wise way to choose a college. When my daughter makes up her mind on something, there’s no point discussing it – she does things her way no matter what others think. But that doesn’t mean that it’s a good plan in general for choosing a college. I think OP should encourage her daughter to take a broader view – it’s not about where the student applies, it’s where she is accepted and what her family can afford that counts. </p>
<p>Good advice in this thread. Fortunately, the OP’s D has some time and perhaps she will recalibrate. It seems the kids who are introspective enough to craft a well-balanced list often end up getting into their reach school, though they would be perfectly satisfied with their safety/target schools; whereas, ironically, the kids who fixate too heavily on the most commonly known prestige schools often end up at their safety/target schools, and as result are crushed and humiliated. </p>