<p>I say let the kid decide where they want to go to school and the parent fund it to the best of their ability. If you really want to go to that private $$$ school, take out a loan if M&D can't afford to crack the nut. Being from the South Bronx I was taught the value of a buck. By the time I got out of professional school I was truly up to my neck in debt...but having illiterate and very poor parents made it a simple math problem for me. By the end of 4 yrs of college I owe x amount of dollars. By the end of 4yrs of medical school I owe y amount of dollars. I need to pay back x+y. I thank my parents to this day for teaching me how to be debt free (you have 0 bucks till you pay off your debts). I know I'm fortunate to have such a high income position but you couldn't have beleived how scared I was in the beginning of my career. Coming out of school left me no room for failure. I had to pay off my loans.
I have faith in you kids. You can do it!</p>
<p>Living in Essex Co, or even Bergen, doesn't have to cost a fortune. Yes, 75K is middle class here; 175K is not.</p>
<p>I live in Essex, with a fraction of the expenses NJmom lists. It just depends on where in the county you live. And NJ state tax is dependent on income; if you are paying a lot, you are making a lot.</p>
<p>If you want to buy my house, it'll probably go for the low 200's. Property tax about 5K. And you'll still be near your job.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Median household income in Bergen County, NJ is $65,241; median family income is about $78,079. Average male earns $51,346; average female earns $37,295.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>What's the median income for a typical married couple with school age children? (You will note that in my post, I was careful to state that my figures depend on your family situation. I would guess that the figures you give average in retired people who bought houses here long ago; single people living an apartments; and in general, people whose expenses are a lot lower than your typical married couple with school age children.)</p>
<p>
[quote]
Worse than that, they appear to be "affluent" plus unappreciative of their own wealth. I'd like to send them off to rural Thailand for a month, too, to get a sense of how the rest of the world lives.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Guess what? By the standards of much of the Third World, you are not middle class, or even just affluent -- you are super rich. But so what? Rich people should not feel ashamed about anything and this thread should not be a contest to see who is the poorest.</p>
<p>And since you referred to the county in which I live, I assume the comment about "unappreciative" was directed at me. Please show me which posts of mine (or anyone else for that matter) which makes you think I am (or they are) unappreciative of my (their) own wealth.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The issue really isn't that the upper "middle" class can't afford it... it still comes down to the fact that they don't want to pay --
[/quote]
</p>
<p>If my children were entering college right now, I could pay only by selling my house. Yes it's a choice, but it's not reasonable to ask that of parents and claim that you are meeting their childrens' needs. Because most parents just won't do that. And colleges know or should know this.</p>
<p>JMHO.</p>
<p>
[quote]
If you want to buy my house, it'll probably go for the low 200's. Property tax about 5K. And you'll still be near your job.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Which town do you live in?</p>
<p>I do not know whether "median family income" refers to a hypothetical family of 4, two adults + 2 children, or merely to a household in which the people are related. If the latter, then the average family size in Bergen is 3.17</p>
<p>"median household" income would refer to the average household, which in Bergen County is 2.64. </p>
<p>Since children usually aren't bringing income, if you extrapolate from the average male and average female earnings of $51K and $31K respectively (which would be $82K combined) and factor in the fact that in some 2-parent households the wife does not work, I think you will see that the $78K average figure makes sense for family, as it is within $4K of what an average 2-earner household would brings in. Additional children in the family raises expenses, but it doesn't help with income so its not going to bring up the numbers. </p>
<p>
[quote]
Please show me which posts of mine (or anyone else for that matter) which makes you think I am (or they are) unappreciative of my (their) own wealth.
[/quote]
I think that anyone whose income is in the top 5% and who is distraught because the financial aid system would force them to borrow or dip into home equity or retirement assets is unappreciative of their own wealth. An IRA or 401K is an accumulation of wealth. Home equity is an accumulation or wealth. Just because it isn't lying around as ready cash doesn't make it any less real or valuable. </p>
<p>Again, I have not seen a single self-described "upper middle class" person come on to these boards and complaint that they want to borrow for their kids education but just don't have enough money to make the monthly loan payments. The lament is always that they don't want debt and they don't want to touch home equity and they don't want to do anything that in any way cuts into their retirement funds. In other words, they have mentally segregated some of their accumulated wealth into some sort of untouchable status and somehow think that it should be protected from consideration for college financing, even though a person with $200K sitting in an IRA or $350K in home equity is obviously a lot better off than a person with no IRA or home equity.</p>
<p>
[quote]
If my children were entering college right now, I could pay only by selling my house.
[/quote]
Six-figure income and you can't borrow? </p>
<p>Of course, I don't know what kind of house you live in. Mine is pretty much in the bottom quintile in terms of property values in this county ... it is "modest" by any definition.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I do not know whether "median family income" refers to a hypothetical family of 4, two adults + 2 children, or merely to a household in which the people are related. If the latter, then the average family size in Bergen is 3.17</p>
<p>[snip]
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I think your math is a little off. Let me ask you this . . . do you think that a household earning the median income in Bergen County could afford to purchase a median-priced house?</p>
<p>
[quote]
I think that anyone whose income is in the top 5% and who is distraught because the financial aid system would force them to borrow or dip into home equity or retirement assets is unappreciative of their own wealth. An IRA or 401K is an accumulation of wealth. Home equity is an accumulation or wealth. Just because it isn't lying around as ready cash doesn't make it any less real or valuable.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Kindly point to a post where somebody who needed merely to "borrow or dip into home equity or retirement assets" to pay for college was distraught about this fact.</p>
<p>Thanks in advance!!</p>
<p>
[quote]
Six-figure income and you can't borrow?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I can borrow enough to buy a car. I couldn't borrow enough to pay for eight years of tuition, room, and board at Harvard or wherever.</p>
<p>Anyway, you continue misunderstand that my complaint is primarily about my own situation. As I said earlier in this thread, my wife and I both come from relatively wealthy families and there is a good chance they would help pay for my kids' college. Moreover, there is a good chance I will be above my own threshold for middle class this year or next. I make a lot of money and (believe it or not) I am extremely appreciative of the privilege I enjoy and extremely glad that my great grandparents decided to leave Europe and move to the United States.</p>
<p>None of this changes the fact that the college tuition and financial aid system is unfair in many ways. My own personal situation doesn't change this fact one bit. Anyway, rich people can be the victims of unfairness too. Like I said before, if Bill Gates orders a 100 foot yacht and the boat-builder gives him a 95 foot yacht, he has a legitimate complaint.</p>
<p>JMHO</p>
<p>lskinner--rather not name my town, but I very much doubt you'd move here. I'm serious about the price and taxes, though. I'll be thrilled if we get that price range, and we're selling in the next year or two.</p>
<p>It seems to me that mathematics dictates the following: If you live in a wealthy town or state and you have a median income for that town or state, you are wealthy compared to the nation.</p>
<p>You can find median income figures by household size and state here: <a href="http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/medincsizeandstate.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/medincsizeandstate.html</a></p>
<p>Median incomes are sometimes capable of generating enough revenue for a median price house. However, when they are not, there are some who benefit -- people who bought before the housing prices went up and therefore gained in home equity for which they did not pay. The higher price is reflected in increasing property taxes, which has to be paid for out of household income, but the household also receives a federal tax deduction. Policy-makers consider that deduction to be the largest U.S. housing program, as its cost to the federal treasury is far beyond the cost for public housing and housing vouchers for the poor. Median housing prices by metropolitan region can be found here: <a href="http://www.realtor.org/Research.nsf/Pages/MetroPrice%5B/url%5D">http://www.realtor.org/Research.nsf/Pages/MetroPrice</a></p>
<p>As someone who lives in a low housing cost area, I understand that it must be difficult to have the face the possibility of using home equity gained from the rising market in order to pay for college. However, I also think it is a source of household assets that lots of other folks -- renters (who have lower average income than homeowners) and people in lower housing cost areas -- do not have.</p>
<p>we live in an expensive area- but we we also have made adjustments and choices to be able to live here- probably have less in retirement- bought our house before it became a "hot" place to live-save money by doing our own maintenance on our cars and house.</p>
<p>We also had to take out an equity loan- which have doubled our mortgage payment- but while we don't want to move- we realize we will have to move someplace much cheaper for retirement. At that time, if annual assessment increases are any indication- our 1901 2 bedroom house will be worth a million dollars! lol</p>
<p>Many are sharing the situation of having to find someplace cheaper to live- so we are in good company.
We are also fairly flexible- although right now- we have to live close to manufacturing for work- when we retire- we are planning to be self employed and provide services that will be needed in a small town-</p>
<p>( which brings up- an attorney who has left his big firm to be self employed- can't relocate?- I also imagine that law school would prepare for other jobs as well , teaching perhaps? my D had a great english teacher in high school who used to be a law professor at Seattle U- good teachers are needed anywhere)</p>
<p>
[quote]
The Census Bureau measured domestic migration - people moving within the United States - from 1990 to 2000, and from 2000 to 2004. The report provides the number of people moving into and out of each state and the 25 largest metropolitan areas.</p>
<p>The states that attracted the most new residents: Florida, Arizona and Nevada. The states that lost the most: New York, California and Illinois.</p>
<p>Among the 25 largest metropolitan areas, 18 had more people move out than move in from 2000 to 2004. New York, Los Angeles and Chicago - the three biggest metropolitan areas - lost the most residents to domestic moves. The New York metropolitan area had a net loss of more than 210,000 residents a year from 2000 to 2004.
Richard Florida, a professor of public policy at George Mason University, said smaller, wealthier households are replacing larger families in many big metropolitan areas.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The thing is, with your rising home equity, you can choose to move somewhere with comparable or lesser costs. You have a lot of options. Up here in Maine, we have lots of NY, DC, and Boston refugees who are getting amazing properties after selling their inflated houses. However, Maine people have fewer choices about where they might want to retire. We don't have huge amounts of equity that were built up simply by living in our houses. We don't have cheaper places to move to -- we already live in a cheap place!</p>
<p>garland,</p>
<p>The cost of sending a kid to a 4-year private university is the same as the value of your house. Do you see nothing outrageous in that?</p>
<p>A middle-class and above family with 3 children who are admitted to Harvard faces the prospect of about $1million in tuition bills. Even tho' the kids will have other choices, there is something out of whack here. If the kids were good enough to get in, shouldn't they get to go?</p>
<p>That's where my outrage lies. (Not in the "who is poorer or more grateful " argument).</p>
<p>"If the kids were good enough to get in, shouldn't they get to go?" </p>
<p>It's a crying shame, but Harvard gets to decide how to allocate their money, as did the family when deciding where to live, how much to save, how much debt to take on and - life's not fair.</p>
<p>Garland, where do you live? $5K property taxes, mid-$200K for a house. Not in my township, that's for sure. Earns a lot is relative; spouse and I are faculty at NJMS, but we have PhD's and must earn our salaries through external grants. We do not have tenure. No grants = no jobs.
And FYI, I live in my township so I can walk to synagogue. That's not possible in every twp. Momfromme, that's why ME is not an option for us. Plus do you know how hard it is to find jobs for 1 academic, let alone 2?
Don't compare anyone here to a poor family in Thailand or Bangladesh; it's not a fair comparison (of course a kid from such a family who was accepted to HYPS would go at no cost to the family).<br>
The middle class itself is quite stratified. The income range is broad. Geographical differences have to be factored in to make comparable assessments. Eg, Monfromme, assuming I could land a comparable job in ME and that there is an Orthodox community near it to move to, my salary would probably be much less than what I make here. Yes other expenses would be less. But I'd be no further ahead, not in a better position to afford college for D#2. How many of those refugees you know are pursuing the same occupations, please tell me?<br>
BTW, property taxes in BH are much less than in n NJ. Fact: my brother lives in Hancock Park, the original rich neighborhood in LA (the mayor's mansion is there). Has 0.5 acre, 5000 sq ft house with inground pool, separate guest cottage. Taxes: about $5000/yr. LA city taxes higher than LA county (BH). CA income tax (at least when we lived there) was 10% of federal, so whatever deductions you have off federal applied indirectly to state. No deductions in NJ (except health costs and they have to exceed a certain percentage).
Bay, I share the outrage. Yes they should go without bankrupting the family.</p>
<p>We don't have huge amounts of equity that were built up simply by living in our houses</p>
<p>Then you don't have to take it out in order to pay for college- lucky you :)
It would be great if we didn't have to move- I really don't want to- when we moved here this was a low income- semi industrial neighborhood.
It still is semi industrial- but housing is overpriced.</p>
<p>If the kids were good enough to get in, shouldn't they get to go?</p>
<p>Are we saying the same to low income kids who can't afford the state school?
Nope- we tell them to go to community college.</p>
<p>So why should I expect a student who has been accepted to a need aid only school, but whose family isn't going to pay the costs, be subsidized to attend?</p>
<p>I don't buy things that I can't afford- or can't justify the expense.
That is just the way it is.</p>
<p>"But, the high equity can also be leveraged. Don't you think?"</p>
<p>Just a side note here: the market has gotten very bad in real estate where I am and where we had about $100k in equity 1 1/2 years ago, we now have none. That's ok, though, because we love our home and plan to stay here for years (God willing) and had Zoosergirl's college payment situation figured out in a way that didn't include equity. We'll just be patient and things will work out just fine.</p>
<p>It's certainly tough to tailor where you get an academic job. But there are plenty of lawyers, doctors, businesspeople and, yes, academics in Maine who have lower salaries and much lower home equity. My synagogue has plenty of them, nearly all of whom did not grow up in Maine. Because of their lower salaries and the local housing market, they do not have the option of using large amounts of equity and are more reliant on financial aid. Native Mainers have the same limits on available assets and income.</p>
<p>But my point certainly goes beyond my and your local circumstances. When someone has a lot of assets, colleges consider them available for financing college costs. That doesn't seem terribly unjust to me.</p>
<p>Momfromme, you conflate deciding where to live with choices that are sometimes not a real choice. You live where you live by and large because it's near to work and because the neighborhood or town offers what you want: pricing, school, kids, sidewalks with lights, synagogue or church or mosque or temple, parks, convenient shopping, near enough to an airport, ...., whatever. As an academic, I need the resources at NJMS for my research. They're not in ME, they are here. Telling folks to pack it up and move to a cheap place is not a solution for out-of-control college costs. Do you know how hard it is for men over 50 and women over 40 to find jobs in corporate America? Those are the ages at which you can file age discrimination lawsuits (assuming you have the facts, a lawyer who works pro bono, and can wait 10 yrs for a settlement because you sure as shootin' will be blackballed from your profession). DH and I spent our 20's in school completing our PhDs; we do biomedical research (I'm working on experimental therapies for prostate cancer). This is what I do and it does not earn big bucks. The kids at Google make more than I do. I am not griping, just putting my occupation into context. You ooh and aah over the high school kid who wants to work on cancer and write about it for a college essay; I really work on it (and have had HS kids in my lab over summers). And for it, I am hard-pressed to afford the college MY kid deserves.
editied to say, not HYPS</p>
<p>Momfrom me, physicians, lawyers, etc can work anywhere as long as they are licensed. DH and I cannot.<br>
Would that it were so.
I guess no one should be an academic, then we'll have no colleges and thus no strastospheric tuitions.</p>
<p>"I understand that the high earners are not rich like Bill Gates -- they don't live in mansions or fly around in private jets. But I still think that they could afford to pay for private college if they wanted to, the same way that I can, by borrowing about half of their EFC's."</p>
<p>I'm one of those posters who lives in NYC with high earnings and gets nuts when I'm called rich. But I have to say that I agree with the above. Hubby and I are well meaning people who never went to college and had no idea what we were doing here, but we did arrange to send our kid to a perfectly lovely private school. We are doing that partly out of savings, partly out of income, partly from her working and partly from merit aid. ZG probably did reach lower (through ignorance) than she might have, but I've come to believe that one needs to do so in order to get that merit aid. We feel that it's our responsibility to pay for our kids' education and really don't expect/want anyone else to do so. Younger daughter is a freshman in hs who will have very different prospects and we've already told her that she needs to include financial safeties and if she happens to be admitted to an elite college, she'd better have a plan to deal with substantial debt.</p>
<p>I'm not saying anyone should move! It's a free country. People should live where they want and where it works for them. (A bit off topic -- Let me point out that there are biomedical researchers in Maine and it is a growing sector for the state.) </p>
<p>I'm just pointing out that when you have a lot of assets from home equity, colleges will consider them to be part of the overall asset picture. It is a financial benefit to have those funds when compared to not having those funds. OK, it may not feel like a financial benefit to people in expensive areas, but if you don't have it, it is.</p>