Middle-Class Gets a Raw Deal

Paying for College
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<p>One way how you can’t qualify for CAL Grant during your fourth year (even though your EFC is 0) is that you had Sophomore standing before your first day of college. (Because your CAL Grant gets reduced for one year for having Sophomore standing or by two years if you had Junior standing before you started college.)</p>

<p>“For California residents whose families earn less than $60,000 a year and who qualify for financial aid, the Blue and Gold Opportunity Plan will fully cover UC’s systemwide fees. Qualified students must be in their first four years of attendance (first two for transfer students).”</p>

<p>How is the term “UC’s systemwide” defined? </p>

<p>Does it include books, room, board, etc?</p>

<p>Regarding the Blue and Gold Opportunity Plan, does anybody know if the complete financial aid package includes loans and federal work-study awards or is it just grants and scholarships only?</p>

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<p>I live in NYC, probably the most expensive city to live in the United States. Now, my parents are working people…not poor but definitely not what you would call “middle class” in New York City. Personally, I feel like my parents are being penalized for working decent jobs. My father is a teacher and my mom is a school secretary. Maybe in other states this is enough to pay for college without struggling but not here. I am currently taking a break from school because my parents are having trouble paying for my college expenses. </p>

<p>I get $0.00 from financial aid and it really does upset me deeply when I think about it. I can’t even get a full loan! I think it is so unfair that working class people are treated this way, not middle class. In this system you cannot receive any assistance unless you are dirt poor and it isn’t fair. I’m not saying that poor people should not get assistance, of course they should, but it should be taken into account that working class people work hard for their money and should be rewarded for it. If you are not poor already, then they will make sure you poor at the end of paying all of these college expenses.</p>

<p>It’s not like I even live in Manhattan, I live in the Bronx. Rich people don’t live in the Bronx, working class and poor people do. The ridiculously high rent, insurance costs, and overall extremely high living expenses should also be taken into account for a family like mine. As of right now, I don’t know when I will be going back to college because of this. I may have to go live in a cardboard box for a little while if I want some help…</p>

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<p>“I get $0.00 from financial aid and it really does upset me deeply when I think about it. I can’t even get a full loan! I think it is so unfair that working class people are treated this way, not middle class. In this system you cannot receive any assistance unless you are dirt poor and it isn’t fair”</p>

<p>Poor people have even fewer financial aid options than you do. Most colleges aren’t able to meet the full financial need of very poor students. You have more chance than do poor students of having your need met, and you see how hard it is for you.</p>

<p>In addition, poor students may not be able to count on the things that you’re now taking for granted such as being able to live with your parents while going to school or while taking time off while working to save money for school. Poor students also may not be able to get any parental help at all for college including getting help cosigning loans, buying books, clothes, etc. In fact, poor students may be having to give part of their earnings to help support their parents and families.</p>

<p>When I taught at a second tier public, I had poor students who were working virtually fulltime, had loans for college and also were sending money home to help their struggling parents and siblings. Some students even were selling their blood to help pay for their college educations.</p>

<p>Many also were first in their families to graduate from high school, so hadn’t had the benefit of having parents who spoke proper English, could help with schoolwork and college apps or felt comfortable going to parent teacher conferences. </p>

<p>You have a lot to be thankful for and certainly shouldn’t be envying those who have much less than you do. Their lives are even tougher than are yours.</p>

<p>The only poor students getting good financial deals are the ones who are brilliant enough and lucky enough to have had the stats to get into places like Harvard, which are the most generous colleges in the country, and also are the hardest to gain entrance to. In fact, if you had gotten into such colleges, you’d probably have had an excellent financial aid package, too.</p>

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<p>I can’t help it, I still object to working my butt off all my life, doing without and saving every penny so I could get ahead and someday be able to send my child to a college I couldn’t afford to go to, and now that the time has come, I find I am penalized by having to pay not only full fare for my child, but tuition for the kid down the street, whose parents spent their weekends enjoying themselves while I was spending mine working overtime. income students.
If it was just tuition to an in-state school I wouldn’t mind, but every time I hear a private school ad-com brag about semester abroad being fully covered by financial aid, when a middle class kid who is paying full fare can’t afford that trip, it bothers me.</p>

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<p>", I find I am penalized by having to pay not only full fare for my child, but tuition for the kid down the street, whose parents spent their weekends enjoying themselves while I was spending mine working overtime. income students. "</p>

<p>??? The low income families I know tend to be working jobs that require more physical labor and the parents also have to work a couple of jobs – typically without benefits – to attempt to make ends meet.</p>

<p>I don’t know low income parents whose kids are getting free rides or are studying abroad at all.</p>

<p>What people like you and I (My kid doesn’t qualify for need-based aid) are paying for our kids’ college education doesn’t cover the full cost of their education. We aren’t subsidizing mythical lazy poor people. </p>

<p>Only 2 public colleges guarantee to meet 100% of students’ documented financial need – U Va. and UNC Chapel Hill. Most private colleges can not do that. It’s only the most competitive public and private college that can afford to do that, and most low income students have no chance of going to such colleges because they attend crappy schools and lack educated parents who are sophisticated enough about education so as to be able to help their kids graduate from high school. For most low income students, there’s virtually no chance that they’d have the educational background or sophisticated parents/guidance counselors who’d be able to help the students get into the kind of generous private colleges that you’re describing.</p>

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<p>Tricy, I’m so sorry this is not working out for you. Were you going to school in NY also? Did you apply for state grants and scholarships? I’m sure the cutoff is much higher than for federal grants though perhaps NYC school teachers are paid more than they are up here. </p>

<p>I don’t understand the “full loan” problem - ALL US students, regardless of need, are eligible for full Stafford loans if they file FAFSA and don’t have a drug conviction. Your parents are eligible to apply for PLUS loans if they haven’t saved enough or can’t make tuition payments out of current income. There are also private loans available, though the credit check is more extensive for those.</p>

<p>The only thing that a 0 EFC guarantees is a Pell grant of $5350. That drops off as EFC increases and is eliminated entirely once EFC > $4619. So, you’re probably not missing out on anything compared to the security and choices that having two employed parents bring. Government aid formulas are based on the premise that college funding is primarily the family’s responsibility and should come from past, present, and future earnings. Low income families usually have a history of low earnings (no past opportunity for savings), and do not have sufficient discretionary income to pay out of pocket.</p>

<p>One thing that bothers me with these types of threads is that people often think that they should be funded to attend any school of their choice. With so many good public colleges and universities in this state, it’s hard for me to comprehend that a middle income family cannot afford education through a combination of loans, savings, budget trimming, and student contributions. Remember, all students enjoy subsidized tuition at their instate publics!</p>

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<p>Northstar- I wasn’t referring to mythical poor people, I was referring to people in my own family who have always spent every cent as soon as they got it. And if it isn’t my tuition money paying for college, it is my tax money. Many schools are saying they are raising tuition this year to help pay for financial aid programs. That said, I know you are aware of my arguments, and I understand yours, so I won’t keep beating this dead horse.</p>

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<p>You are absolutely right Tricy88. People who live in the New York City area have very high expenses compared to many parts of the country. The cost of living is astronomical and should be taken into account for college aid. And for those who say that New Yorkers can move, get over yourselves. Everyone cannot just up and move away from family and employment. $60,000 in some parts of the country is a very good salary. In New York City it goes nowhere.</p>

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<p>UES, no one is suggesting that people move but even that would not likely make Tricy eligible for federal grant money. Even in the rural areas of the state, a full time teacher and a full time secretary are not going to hit the low EFC numbers required for government aid without other extenuating circumstances (multiples in college, high medical bills, etc.). A lower EFC may get her more institutional aid, but only at a generous school.</p>

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<p>I also fully understand Tricy’s situation and it is very sad, IMO.</p>

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<p>Of course I can’t find it now (yes, I spent a portion of the last few nights reading all 38 pages), but someone came up with a good point. When a middle-income family struggles to meet an EFC (or gap) that takes up half of their pre-tax income, as is pretty standard for a CSS/PROFILE EFC, they are still less depressed than a low-income family. If your EFC is $50,000 and your after-tax income is $100,000 (which sounds about right - the EFC being slightly more than 1/3 of the pre-tax income), your remaining income is $50,000. For a low-income student with an income of $25,000 a year, the EFC is nothing but they are still living on half the income of the middle class family. Yes, even in NYC!</p>

<p>Let’s say we have a low-income student who can make no contribution and a middle-class student who can make a $20,000 (on an income of $100,000 a year) contribution, but their EFC is $50,000. They are both 4.0, 2400 class presidents, yada yada yada. Let’s examine some common scenarios. Work-study and summer money go primarily toward non-billable living expenses, books, travel, etc. An excessive of $27,000 in debt (the full Stafford loan) determines an inability to attend.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>IVY LEAGUE SCHOOL OR HIGHLY-RANKED PRIVATE COLLEGE. The low-income student gets a full ride. The middle-income student is expected to pay $50,000 but can’t. The low-income student can attend. The middle-income student cannot ($120,000 debt).</p></li>
<li><p>NON-TOP 20 PRIVATE COLLEGES. The cost of attendance is $40,000. Both students get a wicked academic scholarship of $20,000. That leaves $20,000 a year to pay. The middle-income student can attend. The low-income student cannot ($80,000 debt).</p></li>
<li><p>STATE UNIVERSITY FLAGSHIP. The cost is $25,000 a year. Both students receive $10,000 merit scholarships. That leaves $15,000 a year to pay. The middle-income student can attend. The low-income student cannot ($60,000 in debt).</p></li>
<li><p>COMMUNITY COLLEGE. Cost is $7500 a year for two years, then $20,000 a year for two years at a state university. However, merit for transfers is hard to come by. As a result, the total four year cost for this route is $55,000. The middle-income student can attend. The low-income student cannot ($40,000 debt for the last two years).</p></li>
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<p>Now, in reality, the low-income student has Pell Grants and can work more, as well as can be expected to take out more than $27,000 in loans. But even with those aspects factored in, the low-income student has only option one and option four. Considering the debt associated with option four and the ridiculously low probability of option one actually occurring, it would be tough to convince me that the middle-income student is “screwed” in this.</p>

<p>Being qualified for, and even getting into, a very expensive college does not mean that someone “deserves” to go there. If a low-income student applies to George Washington University and then can’t afford to go there, the fault is in the student’s choice, not the school’s financial aid package. The same goes for middle-income students and incredibly expensive choice schools. Need is determined by a third party for a reason. If it were determined by “well this is what I can contribute”, no one would pay anything - or at least not much. College is a huge investment. To make a huge investment, you’re expected to make huge sacrifices. That is the same for low-income student with a full ride who either has to work more to afford or forego sending money home, working more to afford the student and work study contributions as well as other opportunities like studying abroad, take out loans to cover the student contribution and needs such as books, etc. Except for the upper class - and we can all agree they are the best off - everyone is making a sacrifice. There’s no such thing as a free lunch. I’m sure there are plenty of anecdotes of people gaming the system. It happens. But it doesn’t happen very often, and it’s becoming increasingly difficult to do (take a look at non-custodial parent information waivers - the paper work I have to fill out just because my father was slightly more than a sperm donor!).</p>

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<p>The evidence about the middle class “gap” in financial aid.
Hi. US News & World Report examined the evidence about the very common complaint that the middle class gets the financial aid shaft. Turns out many middle class families really are left out in cold. But low income families, on average, are treated even worse.
[Who</a> Really Gets the Most College Financial Aid? - College Cash 101 (usnews.com)](<a href=“http://www.usnews.com/blogs/college-cash-101/2009/10/19/who-really-gets-the-most-college-financial-aid.html]Who”>http://www.usnews.com/blogs/college-cash-101/2009/10/19/who-really-gets-the-most-college-financial-aid.html)</p>

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<p>I am willing to be money that the combined income of both of your parents is well over 100k. If your father has been working for the DOE for over 20 years and maxed out on education , he makes over 100k by himself. Even if they were both making the minimum starting salary for working for the DOE, they would have a combined income of almost 80k with is more that what half the families in the country earn. And this does not even take into consideration per session or summer school, which they both have to option of working if they choose.</p>

<p>What this means that you will not be eligible for need based FA at a lot of places, but you will be able to pay full freight at SUNY and if you have really worked your but off, you are probably eligible for merit $ a lot of places which may bring the COA in line with SUNY.</p>

<p>If you know that your parents cannot pay the 50K full freight, you job is to choose schools where you would be a good candidate for merit $ while also tossing an application in at some of the SUNY schools.</p>

<p>You can also borrow almost the full cost to attend CUNY on your own through the stafford loan process.</p>

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<p>Not true. Harvard gives a huge discount to those making up to $180k, which is hardly middle class. It could cost about the same or LESS than an instate public to attend Harvard for ~97% of the world’s population. Other colleges with great need-based aid packages can make it LESS expensive to attend such private than it is to attend the instate public. In my state, a UC is $25k per year, and climbing rapidly. Even at $120k per year, it can be less expensive to attend an Ivy or Emory or other fine school than it is to attend our instate public.</p>

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<p>Agree with Tricy88. The Fafsa forms are unrealistic in giving credit for expenses for those expensive areas of the country. In NYC 100K barely makes it if you are lucky to have low rent and no car. I moved 50 miles north of the city to a “lower cost” area and our expenses just to exist (life, car, home insurance, property taxes and utilities) alone total net 23,000 a year. That is huge and I live in a 50 year old house with a decent mortgage. Discount from that car payments (no public transport), income taxes, commuting expenses, etc…. and there is not much disposable income.</p>

<p>it kills me everytime I hear that people have scraped to save and still have to get into debt to send their kids to school. </p>

<p>We can refer people to CUNY’s all you want but the companies in NYC hire at the top tier schools., which is a shame because you have some really good graduates coming out of there but you don’t see Goldman Sachs recruiting.</p>