I’m looking at a lot of small, liberal arts colleges, and have narrowed it down to Middlebury and Carleton as my number 1s. I’m really interested in studying abroad and learning a new language (which I know is stronger at Middlebury), but I also don’t like the weed and alcohol prevalence that seems to be at Middlebury. I know that drinking and drug use is everywhere but I would rather it be less of a majority. I also am very interested in music, and playing in an orchestra, which I think would probably be stronger at Carleton. A challenging academic atmosphere is also very important to me, but i’m not sure which college has more of this. What are the pros and cons of each place??
Another note: I really enjoy MN winter so the cold at Carleton will not be an issue at all.
If you have an opportunity to visit both schools that would be ideal. Both are academically strong, both have alcohol/ weed for those who want it and substance-free housing for those who don’t. You will be challenged at either school. Both have potentially cold winters; Middlebury has skiing, Carleton does not. Try to spend time at both if you can.
You can Nordic ski at Carleton. Just saying. 
I can only speak to Carl and just as a parent so I won’t have the inside story. Both have weed and alcohol I am sure, but at Carl kids can not drink and still be socially successful. It isn’t unusual for underclassmen to wait until they are legal to start drinking. There is a medical amnesty policy at Carl so kids can take care of each other. A high % of Carls study abroad, including varsity athletes, who figure out how to fit a semester abroad with their season.
With its trimester system, Carl academics move fast. Students take three courses a trimester, but with three sessions they end up with nine courses total instead of the eight they’d have on a regular schedule. It is intense and students are smart and hard working. However, it is a friendly and collaborative environment as well. A good example is the math help center on campus. Both math whizzes and math haters show up there to work on problem sets and there is a campus legend who runs it.
It would be great if you could visit.
I’ll make note of one area with which ds had experience … study abroad.
When looking at schools recognize that it’s not just about school-sponsored programs but programs available to you via a school’s association with any number of consortiums. Ds1 studied with a consortium and was the only Carleton kid on his trip. That’s a nice way to expand your horizons and meet new people if you ever feel like your LAC is too tiny at times (he didn’t, but it was still nice to meet a whole new group of people, some of whom he still talks to and visits today). Oh, and while he was abroad he ran into a Carl studying on the other side of the world on another program! He learned about the program at a study abroad fair that Carleton had in Sayles during the winter or early spring trimester, which was plenty of time to get everything squared away for the fall abroad. I hope other schools have something like that.
Ds2 attends an East Coast university and is abroad right now on a nonschool-sponsored trip. He has a Carl in his program! So, again, this is a kid who sought out options beyond the school-sponsored ones. The trimester schedule actually works great for fall study abroad – kids are gone longer than their usual 10-week fall trimester, but it doesn’t interfere with the winter and spring semesters so you still get all your classes in.
Ds1 found the off-campus studies office to be wonderful. As a parent, I did nothing. I told him if he wanted to study abroad he needed to make it happen – applying, getting a visa, scholarships to help defray costs. He did it all himself, with the help of that office. FA applied to study abroad. I admit that I was nervous because it was the first time this consortium offered this particular trip, but the group had been around for 40ish years and we just had to trust that Carleton wouldn’t affiliate with a second-rate outfit. Can’t say enough good things about Carleton and study abroad.
Have a look here for more info on study aboard opportunities at Middlebury: http://www.middlebury.edu/international/sa
It’s worth noting that there are 38 C.V. Starr-Middlebury Schools Abroad in 17 countries across 5 continents. The college just announced they’re opening a new school abroad in Morocco in fall 2016: http://www.middlebury.edu/newsroom/archive/646969/node/502004
Earlier post is confusing: kids can decide not to drink and still be socially successful.
I think this thread may be barking up the wrong tree. If someone asked what Carleton is known for, one might reply “the sciences.” If one asked what Middlebury is known for, one might reply “languages.” I suspect, however, that folks from Carleton might rave about their language classes and Middlebury students might claim that they have a new, state of the art science building. Both positions would be well taken. I doubt that the difference between the schools lies in academics, and any difference between the two would be so slight as to be unnoticeable.
Of course, the trimester vs. semester systems is a point of differentiation, with pros and cos to each.
Certainly, there can’t be much difference in climate, as Vermont is plenty cold in the winter. The town of Middlebury is slightly smaller, slightly crunchier and at the same time slightly more upscale than Northfield, but again not that much of a difference. Rutland is a smaller airport than MSP, and Burlington is further than MSP – but not by much. I do not view study abroad programs as a point of differentiation either. There are so many joint programs and with the ability to petition, you will get to go wherever you want at either school – provided you plan ahead.
So, if you asked me the difference between the schools, I would think it is the students. Middlebury tends to be more “NESCAC preppy” (although there are plenty of crunchier types) and Carleton tends to be more “midwestern friendly,” (although there are plenty of quirkier types). Neither is better, it is yours to choose.
I’d generally agree with gointhruaphase and add a few points.
While I have some significant concerns about stereotyping, and while both schools will certainly offer up similarly strong overall academics:
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Carleton does tend to attract a generally less pre-professional/more academic-for-the-sake-of-academic interest crowd - think a kinder and gentler, more playful, (dare I say happier?) U Chicago or Swarthmore.
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The Midwest is not New England - it too tends to kinder, gentler, and modestly self-effacing - and that also translates to a different experience (both in demographics and environs).
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Your mileage will vary, with some Carls venturing out to Minneapolis/St Paul every week by junior year, some never crossing the Cannon River. If you’ve been to Burlington, you know it’s a charming but tiny city. MSP is 20 times its size with corresponding big city flagships like the Guthrie, Walker, St Paul Chamber, Minne Symphony, etc, etc.
Hope you have visited/can visit. Your gut usually provides much better direction than all these informed blogs. Good luck!
The student body at Middlebury is 25% larger than Carleton’s. An additional 500 students can make a big difference when you’re in a small town. But some prefer a smaller school.
While Carleton may be closer to Minneapolis/St. Paul, Middlebury is closer to the East Coast Megapolis (Boston, NYC, Philly). Midd also is 2.5 hours from Montreal. But hands down Carleton wins in terms of proximity to a large city.
While both schools experience cold and snowy winters, Middlebury is in a valley between two mountain ranges, opening up more opportunities for winter activities. Middlebury owns and operates its own ski mountain (Middlebury Snow Bowl), and offers abundant opportunities for mountain hiking. I’d hazard to say that Middlebury also offers better views.
As for drugs and drinking, you’ll find both at Middlebury and Carleton.
These are both great schools. A few things that differentiate the two schools.
-Phd Productivity
One of Carleton’s claims to fame (or infamy) is the number of PhDs that originally graduate from Carleton. It is usually ranked in the top 6 or 7. Middlebury is not in the top 50. These numbers reflect the culture of Carleton. Professors are supportive and knowledgeable about getting a PhD. Sometimes they really go out of their way to sell a PhD. During our great recession, I was let go, and trying to figure out what to do with my life. Knowing all of my classmates that had got PhDs (some of whom got good advice from) helped me decide to go back to grad school. I thought “if they could do it…”
By the way this is not a criticism of Middlebury. Getting a PhD in certain areas (e.g. humanities) is sometimes questionable.
http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/infbrief/nsf08311/nsf08311.pdf (Page 6)
-Financial Aid Profiles
These are worth looking at. They are dramatically different. Carleton will have many upper middle class students that need aid, but not nearly as much aid as the average student receiving aid at Middlebury. Middlebury has far more students who can pay in full. Middlebury will also have more students essentially receiving a full ride based on need. Average aid per students (all students receiving aid or not) will be higher at Carleton.
https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=Middlebury&s=all&id=230959#finaid
https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=Carleton&s=all&id=173258#finaid
True that Carleton outshines many better-ranked schools when it comes to PhD production, much in the same way that Middlebury is a powerhouse when it comes to placing students in top pre-professional graduate programs (law, business, medicine).
I’m worried these last few comments will serve to obfuscate more than enlighten.
There’s little question that Carleton sends more of its grads on to PhDs in all fields (~ 15%) than does Middlebury (~ 6%). But even at Carleton we’re talking about 1 in 7 kids, not exactly a majority. In the world of “correlation does not imply causation,” as I emphasized before, Carleton attracts, much more than it “creates,” a pretty seriously intellectual student body and supports that intellectualism. I’m skeptical that the same intellectual budding PhD relocated to Midd would be any less well nurtured. That intellectual, nonetheless, might find a deeper environment of like-minded types at Carleton.
Conversely Midd is no more a powerhouse in law, med, business than any other similar school with an academically strong study body. Carleton and Midd produce very similar numbers of MDs + JDs + MBAs. If anything, Carleton grads have significantly higher mid career earnings than those from Midd, despite the predilection to higher PhD productivity.
The discussion of NYC, Boston and Philly is even more confusing. Don’t see the relevance of mentioning cities 3 1/2 to 5 1/2 hours away from Midd. And to argue that drinking and drugs are to be found on every college campus obscures the reality of very measurable, palpable differences in usage between campuses.
Again, I hope the OP has/will have a chance to visit both schools. If so, I’d always suggest you trust your gut.
I agree with some of what 1190 said…not all of it. No doubt Carleton does a great job producing MDs, JDs and MBAs… it is probably very similar to Middlebury. I also didn’t understand the discussion about NYC, Boston, and Philly.
I think 1 in 7 students/alumni going and getting a PhD vs. 1 in 17 will noticeably change the culture of a college. You’ll be a lot more likely to sit down with a fellow Carl and discuss research/future research career goals etc. Also, it certain majors (especially the sciences) you could have 30%-60% getting a PhD. In my graduating Physics class, it was probably more than that. Upper level sciences course will have a whole different tone because of this compared to another college.
As for correlation not implying causation…in this case correlation doesn’t always imply causation no doubt. Sometimes Carleton just attracts students who want to end up getting a PhD. That student would succeed in doing that a Middlebury too.
In other cases, going to Carleton makes a difference. Carleton requires a comprehensive research project/exam during the senior year to graduate. It is like a mini-thesis. It was helpful to me and many of my classmates who went thru it.
https://apps.carleton.edu/admissions/activities/comps/
It was not easy to find something similar using Google at Middlebury…I may have found something like this at Middlebury for Literary studies…maybe somebody from Middlebury can weigh in on whether there is “Comps” requirement for graduation.
Not sure what you’re trying to say @jack63 I was required to write a thesis to graduate from Middlebury (not a mini-thesis). I think the two schools at probably pretty similar. They do probably attract different types of students. I know this will sound as though I’m attacking Carleton, but the Carleton grads I met in grad school were definitely more “nerdy” than the people I knew at Middlebury (maybe that’s just because we weren’t as intellectual at Midd). I think you can’t really go wrong with either school. Check them out when school is in session if possible.
@jack63 is drawing a distinction between an undergraduate thesis - a “mini-thesis” in his words - and a doctoral thesis. Whatever one calls it, no one - either at Carleton or Middlebury - would equate it to a doctoral dissertation.
“True that Carleton outshines many better-ranked schools when it comes to PhD production” (11)
Are there “many better-ranked schools” than Carleton?
“much in the same way that Middlebury is a powerhouse when it comes to placing students in top pre-professional graduate programs” (11)
Is this also in comparison to “many better ranked schools?”
I guess it depends on which ranking you’re looking at. According to the link provided earlier in this thread, Carleton has a higher PhD production rate than Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Stanford, Brown, Amherst, Williams, Pomona, Brown, Duke…I could go on. Many of the most popular rankings place these schools above Carleton.
Carleton is consistently ranked along with Wesleyan and others as one of the most liberal colleges in the country. Can anyone explain what that means in terms of how it plays out in the student body culture and student experience. My youngest child asked me and I had no idea how to respond really. Thanks.
Just posted this in response to related ? posed by SugarSmarts, sorry for taking a short cut copy/paste:
"The school’s political leanings are pretty solidly liberal, on par with what one would find at most other selective LACs. But this is Carleton, and tolerance is a mantra here. More conservative economic views - no problem. Conservative social views - probably more isolating.
This is also the Midwest, and specifically Minnesota. Religion plays some role in the lives of a significant number of students here, probably more so than at colleges on the coasts, and this also tends to impact the tenor of debate and blunt the left-leaning sway on campus."
Wesleyan has always seemed a much more wear-on-your-sleeve left-leaning edgy campus, even by East Coast LAC standards. Other than Hampshire, I’d argue it would be hard to find a more liberal campus in New England. The tone may be measurably different at Carleton, though no one has ever mistaken this for a military academy.