I am a high school senior trying to decide between Middlebury, Dartmouth and Penn (on the off chance I get into all three). I am interested in international policy, languages…and engineering, not your typical mix. Middlebury’s language and abroad programs seem better than the other two, but Penn and Dartmouth have such strong engineering programs (although Middlebury students can earn an engineering degree with 2 years at Dartmouth or Columbia). Location doesn’t matter to me much (would be happy at all three campuses, all incredible and charming in their own way), but am more interested in the quality of teaching and students. And if any of you care to chance me, SAT: 2320; ACT 35, GPA: 4.0 (unweighted), school pres, play some sports but not very good, ecs (been a science tutor to refugees from Somalia for 5 years), essay creative (I hope), strong recs (I hope).
Be careful. 3+2 programs typically have very high “loss of interest” rates i.e. by the time you get to the end of junior year - you will simply not care to so the +2. Secondly, +2 programs have no chance of matching full time engineering programs in terms of rigor, opportunities, access to professors, peer interactions, industry internships and so on.
If you are serious about engineering - go to an engineering school. However, engineering is not a major you should try to pepper in 2 full on other concentrations with. you will do justice to none if you try to squeeze in too many things with engineering. the maximum you can blend in with a proper engineering major is 1 unrelated minor. any more and you will be a weak engineering graduate.
i would not recommend anyone attempt what you have in mind unless you are willing to skim too many topics and just have a stamp of being an engineer with no real depth of knowledge. As it is you have to take breadth of classes in humanities and other subjects and math and science prerequisites as well. There just aren’t enough open slots to do 2 concentrations once the engineering curriculum takes over your life.
Thank you, khanam. This is very helpful feedback, I certainly don’t want to spread myself too thin, but really want to Learn/ be fluent in a foreign language or two as PART of my overall development. I think you’re right, something will have to go 
Or maybe I could focus on engineering in undergrad and then study a language (Arabic, French, Mandarin) in graduate school…Or at Middlebury’s Summer language school.
Re-post after you know your options for sure. Until that time, it is all hypothetical.
learning another language is easy to do on the side. there are way too many tools available online.
also, don’t look too far into the future. focus on 1 step at a time. you still need to get into college. let the set of opportunities available at each step dictate your decisions.
You’re stats are great. They should make you pretty competitive although you have to realize there will be thousands of applicants with stats even better than yours. It all really comes down to your essays and letters of rec, as well as the people that are actually reading your apps. It’s definitely far from a complete science but the readers’ willingness to fight for you certainly plays a role – not something you can control at this point so don’t worry about it.
If you’d prefer a smaller school, Penn probably isn’t the place for you – it’s quite large. On the other hand, Penn has world-renown programs all around and if you chose to go there, you probably won’t regret it at all. All three schools would offer you amazing programs in all your interests but I think that you would have a more fulfilling experience at Penn. You’ll have a broader spectrum of options. At Penn, they encourage students to even create their own majors if they find that they cannot fit all there interests in one particular existing major. It’s in Philly so you’d get that rich urban setting. It’s one of the most diverse schools in the entire country. Internships would be greatly at your disposal – if you’re willing to work for it – and overall, you’d get an overall incomparable cultural experience.
I just want to second this. Take French as a minor, then do a masters’ degree in France and become fluent then.
Also, as UCLAslife mentioned, your stats are great (kudos), but be prepared with “matches” because even if statistically you’re a match for those 3 schools, your chances of getting in are still in less than 1/10 or even 1/20 because pretty much everyone else applying has stats as good or better. Luck plays a big part as well.
Since you want a small school and engineering, I’d pick Dartmouth. (though if you decide you’re fine with a larger school, Penn is arguably better for engineering)
Yeah, forget Midd if u are serious about engineering. But I still don’t get the obsession people have with claiming one great school is “better” than another great school. This seems to happen often with engineering and.business, so perhaps it’s due to a familiarity with and reliance on numbers. Just because somepeople insist on ranking things, it doesn’t mean that the one ranked #2 in Ivy League engineering is “better” than #4. It’s not like at #2 you learn how to design buildings up to 110 stories, and at #4 they only know about buildings up to 95 stories. Just because you rank using numbers, it does not necessarily mean there is a significant or tangible difference.
Actually I was totally blown away by Midd’s new science building and facilities, and honestly the quality and caliber of teaching there (and at Dartmouth) seems better than penn (sat in some classes at all schools). I think because Middlebury is so well known for its language program, it’s rising science programs are sometimes underrated or overlooked. But, really like the idea of creating my own major - didn’t know penn offered that, wonder If Dartmouth does, too. I agree with you moooop about rankings…what makes a program a good fit for one person vs. another is subjective. Really appreciate all of your advice. Although, most likely my decision will be made for me in a few weeks 
While I understand your desire to do something while you’re waiting, you (as well as any other applicant) are unlikely to get into all three schools, so trying to decide between the three doesn’t seem that productive. However, I agree that if engineering is truly on the table, I would avoid 3-2 programs. They are used much less frequently than you might assume.
Regarding Midd, just so you know, science programs != engineering programs. Midd doesn’t offer engineering (except at another college as you know).
I think you have to be very careful when asking about engineering “majors”. There are programs at the undergraduate level that allow you to combine a significant amount of classroom time with engineering professors while essentially attending a regular college of arts and sciences. These are fine and could even be mind-blowing experiences for the right student. However, they won’t get you into a top engineering firm at the end of four years. For that you will need either a bachelor of science degree from an accredited engineering school (they are usually completely separate from the arts and science undergraduates) or be willing to put in anywhere from another year to two years of further education.
The B.A. programs allow you to get your feet wet and have the advantage of having other options should you decide engineering is not for you, whereas most B.S. degrees are designed to supply all the subspecialties like chemical, electrical, mechanical and computer engineering, that an entry-level job recruiter would be looking for. You will definitely not have time for a lot of experimentation with other subjects.
At Dartmouth, you can pursue either program (i.e., applying to the liberal arts college OR the engineering school.) I think Penn only has the engineering school option. Middlebury, as others have pointed out, would require you to squeeze all of your prereqs and liberal arts courses into three years before transferring to an engineering school.
Hope this helps.
Hi there! I hope you get into all three and have the luxury of choosing between them. That being said, if you are looking to combine an engineering degree with components of an outstanding liberal arts education, I genuinely believe Penn would be a great place for you to matriculate. Because Penn has 4, distinct undergraduate schools, each one is robustly funded and supported by individual faculties and administrations within the context of a very well integrated research university. It is thus uniquely positioned to allow you to take advantage of all that an undergraduate education could have to offer. The College of Arts and Sciences (the College) and the School of Engineering and Applied Science (SEAS) are particularly well integrated as students in each school are permitted to take on a second major in the other school without having to actually be enrolled in both schools. From the school website:
https://www.college.upenn.edu/major-options
“The School of Arts & Sciences and the School of Engineering and Applied Science have agreed to make their majors available to undergraduate students in each other’s school. College students are now able to complete a major in one of several Engineering departments. Engineering students are able to complete any of the majors offered in the School of Arts and Sciences.”
Additionally, Penn’s language and study abroad options are also outstanding. When I was an undergrad they frequently told the story of three Penn students who wanted to learn an African language not taught at the University, so they paid for a professor from a nearby university who did teach that language to offer a seminar to these three students. Penn not only has the resources to connect you to the opportunities you’re seeking but the institutional support necessary to make that a reality. If fluency is your goal, Penn is a great place to study.
Additionally, studying abroad and in the class room is essential but the opportunity to speak conversationally with native speakers all year round is important too. At Penn, because Philly has such a huge Muslim population, there are opportunities to volunteer as a tutor in Arabic speaking communities or to teach English as a second language to Arabic speakers while also making connections with whom you can practice your language skills. I have a close friend who tutored at a nearby mosque and was able to make friends with Arabic speakers who helped them practice outside of the classroom. Philly’s Chinese population is a little bit smaller but there is a thriving Chinatown and there are probably similar opportunities to be had there. I don’t know about Philly’s French population though… The point is, Philly is a classroom unto itself and as a Penn student you will be able to benefit from all that it has to offer.
Finally, I don’t think you will find a major difference in the quality of teaching between places like Penn and Dartmouth. There will be differences, however, in how much research is done at each institution by virtue of the size of the school, their research budgets, the breadth of disciplines studied at the university, etc. Both Penn and Dartmouth do a ton of research but Penn does quite a bit more, especially in the sciences/health sciences and engineering. If you are hoping to be surrounded by a very high level of research activity in which you can actually participate as an undergraduate, then Penn is definitely a great fit for you!
That being said, all three schools are absolutely incredible and you can’t go wrong choosing between them. Though, while you mentioned the location doesn’t matter too much to you, it might be important to consider some of the ‘soft factors’ like whether you like a lot of greek life, some greek life, or no greek life. Whether you want to be walking distance from some of the largest art collections in the world or walking distance to some of the best hiking trails and ski slopes America has to offer. It might not seem like it matters until it’s Saturday night and you really want Ethiopian food… Just some ‘food for thought’ 
Please let me know if you have any questions about Penn- I’m happy to answer them. Good luck!
@moooop the reason I said Penn was arguably better for engineering is not because of its ranking but because of greater resources and research opportunities
Go where you feel the greatest fit. They all offer a great education and you’ll have options coming out of any of these schools. Go to the school where you’ll most enjoy your four years.
Penn would be your best choice, BUT the campus is in a city and the other two are not. You should also consider which campus would make you happiest.
Certainly being in Philadelphia would lend itself to more opportunities in international relations than being in the boonies.
Quality of teaching is great at all three, but honestly there are always a few lemons even at top colleges - a professor might be a great researcher and even teacher of grad classes, but stink at undergrad teaching.
Penn has an extensive language program so that should not be an issue.
thank you everyone for this much-needed guidance! If I even have a choice, I am really leaning toward Penn. I hope that this discussion is helpful to other students, like myself, who want a liberal arts foundation, but also want to pursue an engineering degree. Will keep you all posted!!
For engineering, Penn is the best out of these three, since Middlebury does not have engineering (except as a 3+2 program), and Dartmouth engineering typically needs 1-3 quarters beyond four academic years for the ABET-accredited degree.
Accepted to Penn and Middlebury; rejected from Dartmouth. I agree with you, ucbalumnus, that Penn’s engineering program is the best and most revered of the three. BUT, I really fell in love with Middlebury’s campus, community feel, and smaller size. Also love to ski, hike, and kayak and know that being able to easily recreate outside will be a good outlet for me. So, even though I had been secretly hoping for Dartmouth, and it’s hard to turn down the prestige of Penn, I’m proud to say I’ll be a member of Midd’s class of 2020. Thank you all for weighing in…and who knows, maybe I’ll get a chance to go to Penn or Dartmouth for grad school.
Congrats!