<p>Cardinal Fang please read the OP again. I have no problem with disagreement. And again, everyone keeps making this a liberal vs. conservative thing, which is, of course, your right. But it's not our agenda.</p>
<p>We're not looking for a conservative school. We're looking for schools where there is an ethos that you don't insult people for disagreeing with you.</p>
<p>"We're looking for schools where there is an ethos that you don't insult people for disagreeing with you."</p>
<p>Most professors do not permit students to insult each other in class. If you're looking for a school that prohibits verbal insults between students outside of class, then you may have to look at some of the schools that dictate student behavior 24/7. These schools also dictate things like when and where students are permitted to spend time with the opposite sex, what entity students are required to worship, etc. Here is one school where you can be sure nobody will insult your son when he expresses his views about GWB: PCC</a> :: Prospective Students</p>
<p>
[quote]
"If a student were to say that George Bush is very intelligent and will go down in history as a great president, what kind of reaction would s/he get?" The alum laughed and said that the reaction would be negative, that opinions like that would not find polite reception and that a conservative student would not be happy at Macalester
[/quote]
</p>
<p>How else are you supposed to respond to something like that...</p>
<p>George Bush is very intelligent and will go down in history as a great president</p>
<p>There's a difference though between conservative views and downright stupid views. People are going to laugh at you for making such a ridiculous statement not because it's "conservative" but because it's absurd and the evidence is clearly stacked up against such statements. To even think about uttering something like this in an educated environment reeks of naivety and ignorance, not conservatism. </p>
<p>Most conservative views are ok on a college campus, however. No one's going to bash you for being for laissez-faire economics, against government supported health care, being strict on illegal immigration, etc, etc. </p>
<p>Nevertheless, bigoted views will not be tolerated. So no homophobia, sexism or racism (all three of which are more closely associated with conservatism than liberalism) or you will be shunned by the campus community and looked down upon.</p>
<p>Okay, had to respond to this. My d attends Macalester as did I. It has changed. My d also got the speech from admissions that Mac was open minded but looking to expand the amount of conservatives on campus. She is currently a sophomore and is transferring at the end of this semester. She is a member of the Mac GOP and, literally, the organization has like 8 members and she is the only active one. She has been screamed at (in class where professors did nothing to stop it), looked down upon and basically called stupid by much of the Mac community. I was visiting, my d was on cruthes, two students ahead of us let the door close without holding it for her, one said "that was mean" and the other responded "she's a Republican". This semester has been especially difficult due to the RNC being in St. Paul and the charged political atmosphere on campus. My d would happily debate the issues but no one seems interested in intelligent discourse, my d claims most of the students can't even intelligently discuss the issues. The box of GOP giveaways (stickers, key chains etc.) was stolen and never returned. The GOP attempted to give American Flags to all the Profs. to display on Flag Day (I think) and only about 20% agreed to do so, my daugter was appalled. My d often asks why these incredibly wealthy kids dress as though they are homeless and never brush their hair. I bet in ten years most of them will be investment bankers and voting Republican. At any rate, if you are truly conservative I do not think Mac is the place for you. If you are apolitical you may be alright. Have you considered St. Thomas? I applaud the alumni for giving you an honest answer, if admissions and recruiters had been honest with us I could have saved the $47,000 per year and alot of heartache.</p>
<p>God Bless my daughter she still wears a McCain T-shirt and carries a "I only date Republicans bad." At least the crazy liberals have not broken her spirit.</p>
<p>I'm a freshman at Macalester and a liberal, and as much as it pains me to say it, banditmag's description is fairly accurate...I heard that there was a campus GOP group, but I've never heard about it doing anything (no offense to it; I just mean that as a comment on it's small size and on the pervading liberal-ness here), and the other day, after watching the election results with the campus Democratic group, I was actually wondering if it was still active, what it was doing, etc. Part of the reason I decided to attend Macalester was because of how liberal it is, but at the same time, I wish that there was at least a visible conservative presence for the same of debating, diversity, etc. and also so that the few conservative students on campus would feel more welcomed. It would have been really interesting to have a student debate between the two sides (and anybody with any other affiliations/leaning) in the days leading up to the election. I'd have voted for Obama regardless, because I agree with more of his beliefs, think he's the better candidate, etc., but I'd have liked to hear a serious defense of and argument for the Republican candidates...even now that the election's over, a student debate would be wonderful. Besides, challenges to one's beliefs help them grow and evolve and make them stronger; particularly with such a strong interest in poli sci, etc. at Mac, political discourse would be very valuable.</p>
<p>banditmag and Upsilamba, thanks for your informative posts. I was hoping, and my son was hoping, to hear the opposite. But this is very valuable information for us and we appreciate it.</p>
<p>Upsilamba, I rarely hear from a liberal who is open to debate and other points of view. As you said " It would have been really interesting to have a student debate between the two sides (and anybody with any other affiliations/leaning) in the days leading up to the election. I'd have voted for Obama regardless..."</p>
<p>Since you do appear to be open-minded, isn't it possible that if you had taken part in some reasonable debates you might have learned something new and your opinion might have have shifted?</p>
<p>bird rock, you seem to be misunderstanding the simple fact that personal valuation of one's own opinion and personal devaluation of differing opinions is just a simple fact of human nature.</p>
<p>Your whole "I rarely hear from a liberal who is open to debate and other points of view" line works just as well to describe conservatives. This isn't about being open-minded vs. being closed-minded; it's about failing to recognize open-mindedness and close-mindedness are subjective perceptions.</p>
<p>For example:</p>
<p>1: "I think all blacks ought to hang from trees."
2: "What the hell?? You're crazy!"
1: "Wow, no need to be such a closed-minded prick about it."</p>
<p>or:</p>
<ol>
<li>"Hitler was an exceptionally decent man, and people just hate him because it's the popular thing to do."</li>
<li>"My, your opinion differs from the orthodoxy. You must be exceptionally open-minded!"</li>
</ol>
<p>I am of course using blatant hyperbole to illustrate the point, but the concept remains nonetheless.</p>
<p>In short, Bush has the lowest approval rate of any US president, and Malcalester will most likely mirror this fact. And no, your political beliefs do not qualify you as a minority worthy of affirmative action.</p>
<p>Spare the "color" remark. I'm just trying to be honest with you. ;)</p>
<p>bird rock- I think it would have made me consider new ideas, and even the ideas that stayed the same it would have strengthened, but I don't think that it would have been enough to make me switch which presidential candidate I supported.</p>
<p>I suppose a good way of putting it is that I'm more open to change regarding anything related to money or the economy (e.g. welfare programs, taxes, social security, economic stimulus, etc.), but some of my more...ideological views I don't think could be changed...like my views on Iraq, abortion, etc. To be honest, economics seems so complex and mind-boggling that I don't understand how anybody save for economists themselves, if even them, can understand it; liberal ideas seem to make more sense, but I could see being swayed to a more moderate position because my stance isn't as strongly grounded. But with something like abortion or the death penalty, opinions are founded more strongly in value systems and often faith, the former of which can be extremely hard to defeat logically (as one person's view on an issue might be grounded in the belief that a is more important than b, but the holder of an opposing view might believe that b is more important than a, so then the first person first has to persuade the second person that a is more important than b and then that his/her view is correct) and the latter of which by very definition is separate from logic (and I say this as somebody who is an atheist, but still considers her atheism to be faith, because one can never logically prove the existence or the non-existence of a higher power, yet I still believe in the non-existance). </p>
<p>Seeing how my views did and didn't change would be part of what would be interesting, as well as seeing what I thought of the criticism the conservatives would give to the liberals views and how the conservatives would respond to liberal criticism; I mean, I watched some of the debates leading up to the election, but it'd be different to have people just talking about their beliefs without the whole campaigning/trying to convince people to vote for them aspect of it...actually answering questions, admitting when you're wrong or you don't know how to answer something, etc. (and I mean this for both sides). I want to hear the views of honest, intelligent Republicans who are expressing their beliefs freely. And as well, I'd like to hear Democrats respond freely and honestly to Republican criticism.</p>
<p>Upsilamba, thanks for your thoughtful response. I guess I'm an extremist on open-mindedness; I'd like to think that I could change my mind about anything. And I'm open to the idea that having fixed ideological ideas works for you. No problem, and thanks again for helpful information. BTW, I'm a baby boomer, so growing up leftist in the 1960s....boy did we have strong notions about what was true. So I get it and respect it.</p>
<p>The GOP at Mac, I believe, has 8 members, 5 of which are inactive. What did the 3 other members do during the election? One of them plays football so he claimed too busy to do anything. My d volunteered for the campaign and spent innumberable hours attending meetings at Mac for MPIRG and several other orgs whose bylaws state that in must be bi-partisan. She spent November 4th knocking on dorm room doors to "get out the vote" - once again had to be bi-partisan. It is difficult to be a group of one, or two. Also, many profs incorporated the election into class and required papers that needed a conservative view. My d gave interviews to at least 6 first year students.....</p>
<p>My d cannot get out of Mac quickly enough. She was on the phone with me when Obama was announced the winner - she was actually afraid to walk across campus to the library to print a paper. I stayed on the phone with her and heard the deragotory comments from many of the celebrants. On a more personal note she was invited, then uninvited, to the campus election viewing party in the Campus Center. She considers many of the Mac Dems her friends. She would never admit it but she was hurt. Election night was very difficult for her, not because her candidate lost, but because of the environment. In the true spirit of America my d responded to people with Barack Obama is now my president and I will support him. </p>
<p>As far as debates, most of the liberals at Mac cannot debate the issues. They are blind followers. My d can explain the tax policies, health care stance etc.. of both major candidates. The debate would not have been about George Bush and his failures but about McCain's policies going forward. </p>
<p>A wise man once said "any man under 30 who is not a liberal has not heart, any man over 30 who is not conservative has not brains"</p>
<p>Birdrock: The Macalester rep. was just being honest with you as was the Macalester student in Post#2. It is nice to be open-minded, but that doesn't mean that you should disregard blatant honesty when offered in response to your posted opinion.
Macalester College is a very liberal school in all commonly used senses of that word. Possibly the University of Chicago might be the type of atmosphere you are seeking for your son.
Banditmag: Your daughter should have researched Macalester & other schools more thoroughly before enrolling as Macalester has been openly an extremeley liberal school for many years now.</p>
<p>It would be sweet if conservatives were considered minorities. I could get into so many schools.</p>
<p>Coldwind, I am trying to not be upset by your post. We researched the heck out of schools. We drove all over the country. I am a Mac alum and was actually an interviewer for admissions for years. Mac was liberal when I attended but nothing like it is now. I remember having intelligent debates with those who had opposite viewpoints and then going to have a beer. I was never screamed at in a class while a professor did nothing. I was never called names for my views. I can't imagine a Prof when I was at Mac refusing to put an American Flag in his classroom. I was never called stupid, a racist, or ignorant. These are all things my d has experienced. </p>
<p>The original poster really hit home becasue my d was recruited so hard by Mac. "Yes, we are liberal but are making a concerted effort to bring more conservatives to campus and ensure that all viewpoints are represented. Many students complain that there is not enough debate because everyone has the same views." That is the line we were fed over and over again - had someone been honest with us, like the alum was with the OP, my d would have gone elsewhere. My d enjoys a spirited debate, we have them often as I am not nearly as conservative as she. If my daughter were gay, or African American, or Middle Eastern etc. what has occurred at Mac would be called discrimination and the administration would be all over it. </p>
<p>I gave money to Mac every year since I graduated, they will never get another cent from me. I just spoke to my d, she has 37 days left. I am sorry she went to Mac as it has completely obliterated the love I had for my alma mater.</p>
<p>Country Day - I agree wholeheartedly, my d might have actually gotten some aide to attend Mac if conservatives were a minority. She has certainly been discriminated against.</p>
<p>"In 1978 [Bob] Mould [future Huskur Du singer] began attending prestigious Macalester College in St. Paul, Minnesota, on an underprivileged student scholarship. He'd chosen Macalester because in the Sixties the school had supported the left-wing Students for a Democratic Society; legendary liberal politicians like Hubert Humphrey and Walter Mondale had taught there, too.</p>
<p>But Mould was disillusioned as soon as he arrived -- the Sixties counterculture had long ago vacated Macalester. In its place was a group of kids who called themselves Young Republicans. 'I remember watching these kids getting up in the morning on my dorm floor, putting on a suit and tie and a briefcase, talking about this guy from California named Ronald Reagan and how he was going to be the next president,' says Mould. 'And I'd be sitting there arguing with those fuucks in speech class and poli sci and just hating that . . . '"</p>
<p>-Our Band Could Be Your Life, Michael Azerrad</p>
<p>(z) - I am not quite that old :) I had not even come close to graduating high school yet!</p>
<p>The flag thing could be because of the internationalism and multiculturalism that Macalester is trying to emphasize and foster--I don't think professors would refused to put up a flag out of any anti-American feelings but rather so as not to appear to favor some students over others.</p>
<p>"(z) - I am not quite that old I had not even come close to graduating high school yet!"</p>
<p>Well . . . I have no idea how old you are. (Though you clearly had kids younger than my parents!) I came across that passage in my reading of Our Band Could Be Your Life [fantastic book, by the way, for anyone interested in classic indie rock] and found it fascinating that Macalester was characterized as such. I guess the school has come full circle? </p>
<p><em>sports Mondale/Ferraro pin</em></p>
<p>(z) - Love the Mondale/Ferraro pin!</p>
<p>Upsilamba - Wow, you are an idealist if you believe internationalism is the reason Mac Profs will not display a U.S. flag. as my d said "gee, we never thought to ask why the Profs would not display the flag" The GOP members did ask and answers ranged from "I do not agree with the American political system" to "I am an anarchist" to "I am just not comfortable doing that". You are young and naive. As you venture through Mac get to know your Profs and you will be shocked at some of what you hear. I have zero respect for anyone who will not proudly display a US flag. If citizens dislike our country so much maybe they should move somewhere else and see what it is like. I have travelled much of the world and can honestly say there are few places that even begin to compare to the U.S.</p>
<p>As for the international students they should be very thankful to the U.S. considering they are getting a world class education and, in most cases, for much less than I am paying.</p>