Mildly disturbing conversation last night

<p>If professors do not agree with the US political system, they should be able to express that. It's sad that the flag has become so linked with specific ideals instead of America as a whole, but the fact stands that it has; "I am not comfortable doing that," can mean almost anything, and I'd guess that it's either what I just mentioned or an internationalism/multiculturalism sort of thing. As for "I am an anarchist" (as a side note, I'm curious which prof or profs is/are anarchists), why should people display symbols of something against their political ideals?</p>

<p>And yes, I am idealistic, yes, I am young, and yes, to a certain degree, I am naive, but just because I am those things doesn't mean that I'm out of touch with reality. And display of a flag or a lack thereof shouldn't be the basis for respect...it should be the person's actual beliefs.</p>

<p>As long as you live in this country and enjoy all of the rights and priveleges of being an American you should be proud to display the U.S. flag, especially on flag day. The response of not displaying the flag due to internationalism is a ludicrous argument. I do not believe any of the U.S. students (or parents) are offended when at every Mac event the flags of all nations attending the school are paraded. I respect every flag and yes, internationalism makes Mac a unique institution, however, this should (and does not) dissuade Profs from displaying a U.S. flag. </p>

<p>As far as the political views of Profs, what is your major? Take some Poli Sci classes, listen to the Profs and research both past and present Profs at Mac. Ask what historical documents are kept on campus for "research purposes". In addition to some extreme views I will admit some Profs are just apolitical but, again, this should not preclude the displaying of the U.S. flag.</p>

<p>Where is your daughter transferring to, banditmag? My daughter is very happy at Macalester, and it makes me feel awful that your daughter was not treated well. When I spoke to my daughter who is a junior about this she was surprised to hear what has transpired. I hope next semester will be the start of a more enjoyable college experience for your daughter.</p>

<p>Momof3D, thanks for the support, it means a lot. My d's life is up in the air right now. Originally she thought she could last the year but as the election got closer and emotions ran higher she decided she had to leave at semester which meant a mad rush to complete apps, send test scores etc before the end of October. She has apps in at University Illinois at Chicago and University of Illinois at Urbana Champaign. She also applied to UNC - Chapel Hill and University of Connecticut. We have no decisions as of yet and some school don't send out spring semester transfer decisions until December 15 - yikes. It is going to be a crazy month for us from mid-December to mid-Janaury. I just hope she is accepted somewhere and she enjoys wherever she transfers since she has not even visitied.</p>

<p>Your d being surprised is not all that shocking. Unless a student is REALLY involved in the political scene at Mac I do not think he or she would be aware. The actions that most disappointed me were the Mac GOP box of goodies being stolen from the campus center (bottle openers, key chains, stickers etc) and my d being invited to the election night party and then being uninvited. It is not everyone at Mac, my d has many friends and some of the Dems treat her respectfully. At any rate it is hard to hear her so miserable everyday. She has a countdown on her wall. On a selfish note I am not looking forward to driving and moving her out in December. Also had to give up a trip to Mexico in Janaury, I will miss that long break.</p>

<p>On a side note, my d also does not feel that the eduation she is receiving is worth $47,000 a year - we get no aid. </p>

<p>Thanks again for the kind words.</p>

<p>If Republicans don't like to be mistreated by Democrats, maybe they should reconsider calling Democrats "traitors" who "hate America." Just a thought.</p>

<p>I love my country, but I don't want to go around waving the flag. If I did, people might mistake me for a Republican.</p>

<p>"you should be proud to display the U.S. flag"</p>

<p>banditmag, thank you for telling me how I should feel. Do you like it when people tell you how you should feel?</p>

<p>banditmag: I did not mean to upset you in any way whatsoever. I believe what I wrote was appropriate, but you, quite understandably, may be in a mild state of shock & disbelief. It is very important to visit schools & sit in on classes before matriculating. This may not be necessary for large universities, but is essential for LACs. "You can make a big school small, but you can't make a small school big."
I read through some of your old posts and noticed that in your first post on CC (12/14/06) that your daughter was a heavily recruited athlete offered substantial money by an Ivy League school. Although I don't quite understand this offer if you don't qualify for financial aid, are you able to still pursue this opportunity?</p>

<p>Cardinal Fang, I'd be interested in reading any specific cites of prominent Republicans referring to Democrats as traitors. I'm not interested in anonymous posters on message boards or shock-jock types of radio hosts or writers who pay the rent by getting a rise out people. Both sides have a few of those and they provide entertainment, but they aren't taken too seriously. At least not by conservatives.</p>

<p>I've heard this charge, and similar charges, numerous times but when asked for specifics, the discussion tends to end.</p>

<p>I've read a lot of conservative message boards and publications over the last seven years. There is occasionally some speculation as to why liberals feel the way they do. But I can't remember a single time any responsible person said that they are traitors. There is frequent reference to how liberal policies will hurt the country, which makes sense, since they prefer conservative policies, but from what I've read they don't go around calling people traitors. If you have different evidence I'd love to read it.</p>

<p>So let's set the standard as any elected official from US Representative on up. Let's include any Senator, Governor, Mayor of a medium sized city or greater.</p>

<p>During the campaign, Sarah Palin said over and over that we (Democrats) aren't real Americans. </p>

<p>During the run-up to the Iraq war, war opponents were repeatedly called traitors. Attorney General Ashcroft said war opponents "aid terrorists." In September of 2004, the South Dakota GOP chair said Tom Daschle brought "comfort to America's enemies." The Constitutional definition of treason: "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort."</p>

<p><a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A45672-2004Sep23?language=printer"&gt;http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A45672-2004Sep23?language=printer&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Coldwind, we did all of the things you suggest including overnights and sitting in on classes at Mac. Since my daughter stayed with athletes she probably did not get a complete picture of the social scene as the athletes stick to themselves and are mainly apolitical. I also don't think anything would have prepared her for campus this year with the RNC being held in St. Paul and then the election.</p>

<p>As far as Ivy League and athletics - my d has given up the sport completely so athletics is out. My d has no desire to attend the Ivy League any longer as she finds many of the Mac students to be elitist and pretentious, despite their liberal views. She has visited friends at 2 ivies and feels she would not be happy.</p>

<p>As far as scholarships and aid - financial situations change, people die.</p>

<p>Let me tell you our Mac story. First, I should say that DH and I are middle of the road politically and that I am a political science professor so I am pretty familiar with all the issues. When we visited Mac in the summer we (D, H and I)really liked it because it was a small college in a fun neighborhood in a city. All the relatives said it was really liberal (which I knew but discounted because they are Republicans, for the most part). Last fall we went the campus on a visit weekend and all was going fine until I happened to read the school newspaper. In the paper was an article about a professor (Jewish and white) who would not let white kids in his black studies class because they couldn't possibly relate to the subject matter. Apparently the administration backed him up on this and that did it for me. D really like the school (husband was not impressed by the group panel of students as not one had plans for anything past graduation) but both of us said to her that not a dime of our money would go there. Daughter probably would have been happy (she is left leaning) but education should have at least some connection to the real world and I couldn't see it happening there</p>

<p>Our Mac experience involves two students that attend there, one who is a life-long close personal friend of my D (who attends UMN nearby and has almost daily contact with Mac students). Your gut is correct Bird Rock, social/political opinions other than left-leaning and/or far left are NOT tolerated, at least if our experience with these students is representative. Furthermore, I have been appalled at how vicious and hateful the speech toward anyone who doesn't agree with them has been. The lifelong friend selected Mac pretty much because she was seeking an environment that supported her political and social views. She is EXTREMELY happy there because as she says, "Everyone is just like me!" </p>

<p>IMHO, it is a good thing that you were told the straight up from this alum. Some of the responses on this thread speak volumes too. Although I have been continually frustrated with the lack of diversity of opinion on college campuses in general, it is very disappointing at the very least. What is so funny is that true intellects(as I have found many of these people believe themselves to be) over the history of time, encourage different opinions and seek to discuss the sides philosophically instead of with attacks and intimidation. Their actions reveal themselves.</p>

<p>Banditmag, I'm sorry your daughter has been having such a bad time. Probably it's no good to say that now the election is over, the situation will moderate. </p>

<p>What schools is she applying to? How has she gone about finding schools where students are more conservative? Well, OK, finding a more conservative school than Mac is a matter of using a dartboard on a school list.</p>

<p>The real toxic combination is students who are both left-wing and very political. Hampden-Sydney and the Naval Academy might be Mac's right-wing counterparts. I think my left-wing son's life would be a misery at Hampden-Sydney, for the same reason your daughter is having a rough time at Mac.</p>

<p>Well at least Macalester isn't the worst example of intolerance in the area:</p>

<p>Power</a> Line - Tolerance In Higher Education</p>

<p>Cardinal fang, first let me repond to your "thanks for telling me how to feel" comment. Yes, if you live here you should be proud of the flag. If you are not then feel free to move to another country, leaving is one of the great freedoms we enjoy. Sorry, but your comment ****ed me off.</p>

<p>My d has decided to become a party girl extrordinaire. She has done no research except for cost as the majority of her education is paid with her money. She applied to University of Illinois at Chicago and University of Illinois at Urbana Champaign although I have my doubts that she will be accepted to either (not grades, she has done spectacularly at Mac, more because she does not have the gen eds since Mac does not require much). Worse case scenario she attends junior college for a semester. </p>

<p>The elitist at Macalester, as always, feel free to comment on her choices - "enjoy going back to high school" - "you know those schools are nowhere near as good as Mac." University of Illinois at Urbana Champaign is damn close and half the price.</p>

<p>Bird Rock - thanks for the post, that was interesting and exactly what I feared for my daughter. I would never tell her to hide her opinions though, I always told her if you cannot stand up and say "my name is XXXX and this is what I believe you are no better than the KKK, might as well but a hood on"</p>

<p>I hope everyone has a great weekend.</p>

<p>Denquist: I had a similiar experience during high school as a day student at a day/boarding school in the 1970s. I was the only white enrolled in a Black Literature class and the white teacher graded my work far more harshly than the other students because I could not possibly understand since I was not black. (The teacher appeared in a memorable ocean scene in the movie Jaws). The prep school that I attended finished last of 25 private high schools rated & ranked regarding college placement success. You were wise to save your money and to search for a real education for your child. Unfortunately, now that teacher's son teaches at my son's alma mater which is a top 3 prep boarding school in New England (fortunately he teaches chemistry & hopefully will not further his father's twisted form of elite white liberal racism).</p>

<p>Hasn't this thread gone on far too long? Isn't there ANYTHING else about Macalester worth discussing?</p>

<p>Dorsey, you have to realize that it's very painful for a parent to send their child to college, (worse if it's one's own alma mater) and see her be miserable - don't trivialize their pain. As a practical suggestion, most colleges and universities in the south are more socially conservative and therefore more likely to have a critical mass of Republican students. And cheaper too.</p>

<p>Our children were the opposite. My daughter said "no hot weather, no red states" when she was in high school, but not all kids figure that out before they make a mistake.
Good luck.</p>

<p>My kids found that one of the BEST books that truly described what it is like to go to a particular school, from the students perspective, is the Yale Daily New's "Insiders Guide to Colleges". The 2008 edition does describe Macalester as socially conscious and quite liberal. Examples include "I thought I was way liberal before coming here. Now I think I'm more middle of the road" and "people look and dress and act however they want and its all OK. As long as you're not a Republican". It sounds like a conservative Republican would not be comfortable at Macalester. This book is a great reaource-- I highly recommend it.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Yes, if you live here you should be proud of the flag.

[/quote]
When MY government invades other countries under false pretenses, when MY government tortures prisoners violating the Geneva convention, when MY goverment spies on citizens bypassing judicial oversight, when MY government has a president who decides he does not have to uphold the laws of the land I personally find the situation beyond appalling ... and I will decide how I FEEL about the situation and about how I am feeling about our flag. In addition telling me to love it or leave is incredibly intolerate. I didn't leave ... I VOTED ... and am pretty sure while a lot of Bush supportors are concerned about life in the US in 2009-2012 I am quite looking forward to it. For me election day was one of my proudest days as an American. I will not tell you or anyone else how to feel about the next few years ... please reframe from telling me how I should feel about what I believe are 6 of the darker years of our history.</p>