Mildly disturbing conversation last night

Colleges and Universities A-Z Macalester College
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<p>3togo, if you hate your government why don't you move to another country and see how you like it? Have you spent a significant amount of time overseas? I have spent significant time in 13 countries that I can think of, from 3rd world to Europe, and would still not live anywhere else.</p>

<p>For the record, I am not a Republican. I have voted both parties over my voting record. I do not always agree with the government's actions but, the great thing about this country is you can protest those actions. My love of country is not defined solely by the actions of the government. My country is defined by the citizens who work hard everyday, who take care of their families and neighbors, who work hard everyday so their children may have a better life, who pitch in to help after 9/11 and hurricane Katrina. My country is defined by the soldiers who have fought, and died, for the freedoms we have enjoyed over the last 200+ years. My country is defined by my right to worship any God I chose, to speak my mind, to come and go as I please. In many coutries a message board such as this would not be allowed. Is it a perfect country? No. Am I proud to be American and display the flag, absolutely!</p>

<p>As for the current adminsitration I do not agree with many of their actions, however, not all of our current problems were caused by W.. The economic crisis was perfectly set up by Bill. You want to lambast the goverment what about all of the humanitarian aid we send overseas? You bring up only the negative but what of the millions of dollars your government spends to aid Tsunami victims, Earthquake victims and those whose rights are not acknowledged? If you want to point out the negative in your government you should acknowledge the positive as well.</p>

<p>I am sorry you are not proud to be an American, I am, and we agree to differ although liberals tend to have a hard time with that :)</p>

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<p>I hate the Bush government. But I'm not going to be forced out of my own country by a bunch of incompetents who dragged my Constitution and my country's reputation through the mud for eight long years, let alone by someone on a chat board.</p>

<p>America. Love it and make it better.</p>

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<p>Hey Cardinal Fang, I agree there are things to be changed in our country. Go out and change them, I also think the President Elect will help our reputation internationally. Go do good, change things for the better but I am still proud to be an American and display my flag!</p>

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<p>Flag Day is June 14th. Macalester is not in session on June 14th.<br>
So why were professors asked to display american flags?</p>

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<p>From the Mac Weekly - November 7, 2008
. . .reference to students watching McCain's concession speech on Election Day</p>

<p>"McCain's speech also seemed to move the crowd watching inside Kagin. As he appeared on screen, the Macalester audience fell silent, aside from a few scoffs at the mention of Sarah Palin. When he finished his speech, the Democratic supporters in Kagin applauded him."</p>

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<p>
[quote]
3togo, if you hate your government why don't you move to another country and see how you like it? Have you spent a significant amount of time overseas? I have spent significant time in 13 countries that I can think of, from 3rd world to Europe, and would still not live anywhere else.

[/quote]
Thanks for discussing we're getting closer. Yes, I have traveled quite a bit mostly to Europe but some other countries also. I've never lived anywhere else but pretty darn close with England (50% time for months). You're correct ... my issue lately has been with our government which in many ways controls the way we are projected to the rest of the world. When I'm not liking our governement I think it refelcts poorly on all of us ... I'm not leaving because this is my home; where my family, friends, kids, and history are ... I will stay ride it out and vote ... and know better days will return. I certainly understand if the actions of our goverment have a different affect on you than I.</p>

<p>
[quote]
For the record, I am not a Republican. I have voted both parties over my voting record. I do not always agree with the government's actions but, the great thing about this country is you can protest those actions. My love of country is not defined solely by the actions of the government. My country is defined by the citizens who work hard everyday, who take care of their families and neighbors, who work hard everyday so their children may have a better life, who pitch in to help after 9/11 and hurricane Katrina. My country is defined by the soldiers who have fought, and died, for the freedoms we have enjoyed over the last 200+ years. My country is defined by my right to worship any God I chose, to speak my mind, to come and go as I please. In many coutries a message board such as this would not be allowed. Is it a perfect country? No. Am I proud to be American and display the flag, absolutely!

[/quote]
Hmm ... fair enough ... I have to admit one of things I dislike about during elections cycles is when politicians feel the need to say the US is the greatest country in the world ... why can they not say this is a great country and a great place to live ... why do we feel the need to say we're better. One of my impressions from my visits to the 15 or so countries I have visited is that people in many ways are the same all over the world. They want their families to be well, work hard top provide for their familes, help out their neighbors (and even their non-neighbors) when they are in need, want to be safe, and want their government to be fair and a good citizen in the world (I haven't been to any rogue states). I in no way look at any as these qualities as uniquely American ... I look at them as fundamental positive human traits we all share. The items on your list that are uniquely American, IMO, were the last couple ... freedom to practice religion and freedom of speech. It is in areas like these ... the rights and actions of our goverment have been horrible over the last 6 years.</p>

<p>I read a great book a few years ago on a plane. It was about a guy who walked across country with no bucks. He would get to a new town and inevitably someone would let him pitch his tent in their yard or invite him to stay at their house ... everywhere he went people were kind to him and were good people. In addition, they often warned him about the folks over the mountains or around the bend ... and when he got there they were just as helpful and nice. In my experience the world seems similar ... the people are good, helpful, and focused on living their lives well ... this is true in the US ... it's also true everywhere else I have traveled. I am proud of these traits in Americans however I do not feel we somehow have any sort of superior place with them. What differentiates us (or not) is how the system we live under and how we project that system around the world. For me personally, the last 6 years have pretty much been a nightmare in that regard ... and I'll decide how that affects me.</p>

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<p><warning: mass="" stereotypes="" ahead=""></warning:></p>

<p>"why can they not say this is a great country and a great place to live ... why do we feel the need to say we're better."</p>

<p>Because mindless nationalism caters to our country's most crucial swing population: that pot-bellied, beer-drinking, guns `n religion-clinging demographic we call "middle America undecided voters." The Joe the Plumber dumbass archetype, if you will. They're disgruntled enough to put Obama -- an intelligent, biracial progressive -- in office, but retain the xenophobia to pass Prop 8 in California and similarly disgusting legislation to rationalize homophobia nationwide.</p>

<p><em>end rant</em></p>

68

<p><warning: mass="" stereotypes="" ahead=""></warning:></p>

<p>You've touched on a problem with our electoral system when you refer to "mindless nationalism". </p>

<p>In deference to the Fairness Doctrine check out- </p>

<p>How</a> Obama Got Elected</p>

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<p>^</p>

<p>I'm not sure what your point is. Ignorance is a problem on both sides of the partisan divide -- to try and manipulate statistics/interviews to suggest that voters for one party are somehow more or less ignorant than the other is absurd. Such a video could be created for voters of any winning president of the past 40 years.</p>

<p>My only point was the presidential candidates' rampant use of "mindless nationalism" to rouse voters -- and this is overwhelmingly a Republican tactic. And which national convention did chants of "USA! USA! USA!" erupt?</p>

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<p>At any rate, I do think the phrases in that introduction pretty unequivocally show the creator's agenda. </p>

<p>Obama's "extreme liberal positions" -- compared to who? Joe Lieberman? Let's not confuse vehemently anti-war with "extreme liberal." Obama didn't even have the lefty chutzpah to come out in favor of gay marriage; he didn't speak out against the bailout. "Extreme liberal" politicians do not win elections in a fundamentally center right nation. I personally would rather Kucinich as president, but we all make sacrifices.</p>

<p>"radical political alliances" -- what? Have we still not gotten past the William Ayers smear? This bullshiit is the very epitome of ignorance; the meaninglessness of that connection has been made clear again and again.</p>

<p>"limited experience" -- has been discussed enough. See: Sarah Palin.</p>

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<p>a large part of the voting population votes without substantive knowledge about the person or issue they are voting for. Some voters don't make an effort to learn about the platforms. And for voters who actually make an effort to become educated often do so by reaching out to the media for information. If the media has an agenda (which the site I referenced obviously did), voters can also be manipulated to vote that agenda. My point is the same as yours just not so biased towards one party.</p>

<p>The beauty of this country- everyone has a vote no matter how uneducated the voting population is. If a successful candidate is an abyssmal failure the voters have a chance to correct it in 4 yrs. </p>

<p>I was simply pointing out that mass stereotypes work on both sides of the party.</p>

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<p>"The beauty of this country- everyone has a vote no matter how uneducated the voting population is."</p>

<p>Both the beauty of this democracy, and its greatest failure (see: last eight years). No one understood this central contradiction so well as Washington.</p>

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<p>"Both the beauty of this democracy, and its greatest failure (see: last eight years)."</p>

<p>I am of a different opinion than you. I could never consider the results of one of our greatest liberties, the right to vote, to ever be considered a failure of our democracy- no matter what the outcome.</p>

<p>You are obviously an intelligent and passionate person. I don't need to remind you that there are cultures and countries in this world where voting rights are limited or non-existent. And there are citizens in this country who can remember when their voting rights were denied (women & blacks). </p>

<p>I celebrate our rights everyday and give credit to our founding fathers and the activists throughout our country's history who fought to perfect our liberties. It's an ongoing process. </p>

<p>You are obviously upset about the failure of Prop 8 (rightly so- in my opinion). The previous century brought womens' rights, civil rights, educational reform, etc. The beauty of our country is that we are allowed to evolve as a country. The process may not seem fast enough for some but persistence, education, freedom of speech, AND the right to vote have brought results that citizens of many other parts of the world are not entitled to.</p>

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<p>I wasn't going to bring up Prop 8, but since you did . . . </p>

<p>The passage of this amendment has allowed the narrowmindedness of a majority -- a slim one at that, but still a majority -- to infringe on the basic civil rights (to marry) of a minority group. And that is why we have checks and balances. (Supreme Court, here we come!) </p>

<p>Make no mistake, I love our democracy, too, and I am infinitely grateful to have it. But I, uh, also love our Republic. I got some Plato-ism in me, it's true.</p>

<p>Believe me, I think it's beautiful that everyone, no matter how uneducated, ignorant, confused, can vote. But when a candidate like Sarah Palin can charm voters by wearing her shocking ignorance as a fuucking badge of honor . . . well, you see the problem. A beautiful thing, and an ugly thing. Say it together now!</p>

<p>Am I making any sense at all?</p>

75

<p>Yes, you are making sense.</p>

<p>re: your comments about Sarah Palin. Charisma/charm has gotten a great number of candidates elected. Some have had wonderful results- others not so. </p>

<p>The Supreme Court & Prop 8... Another example of the beauty of the checks & balances that the founding fathers developed. I guess I don't get upset anymore about politics because I look at the entire polical process as a beautiful machine of these checks & balances. </p>

<p>I am assuming that you are relatively young (sorry if I'm wrong). Let me ask you, what would you propose is a better system?</p>

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<p>Yeah, I'm eighteen. I have no clue what system would work better, and I'm not ashamed to admit it.</p>