More gloom and doom from the Oracle

Parents Forum
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<p>I usually don't bother to read Paul Krugman, because although I more or less agree with many of his positions, I generally find him predictable and mostly insufferable. However, today I did read:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/30/opinion/krugman-wasting-our-minds.html?_r=1&hp%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/30/opinion/krugman-wasting-our-minds.html?_r=1&hp&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Again, he's predictable and insufferable:</p>

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there’s also a war on the young, which is just as real even if it’s better disguised. And it’s doing immense harm, not just to the young, but to the nation’s future.

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<p>A war on the young, Paul? Really? </p>

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Tuition at public colleges and universities has soared, in part thanks to sharp reductions in state aid. ... So how, exactly, are young people from cash-strapped families supposed to “get the education”? Back in March Mr. Romney had the answer: Find the college “that has a little lower price where you can get a good education.” Good luck with that.

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<p>Guess what, Paul. There are such places. Perhaps not visible from the upper floors of the New York Times building, but millions of young Americans are building their futures by starting at community colleges, then commuting to local state colleges. Research shows that you don't need to go away to a fancy, high-priced residential college to get a good education; a student who is determined to get a good education can get one almost anywhere.</p>

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There is, however, a larger issue: even if students do manage, somehow, to “get the education,” which they do all too often by incurring a lot of debt, they’ll be graduating into an economy that doesn’t seem to want them.

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<p>Another news flash, Paul: the economy is challenging right now for everyone. It's hardly a "war on the young."</p>

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And research tells us that the price isn’t temporary: students who graduate into a bad economy never recover the lost ground. Instead, their earnings are depressed for life.

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<p>What research? When have students graduated into a bad enough economy to allow their life-long earnings to be assessed?</p>

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A mind is a terrible thing to waste; wasting the minds of a whole generation is even more terrible. Let’s stop doing it.

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<p>How cute! Gee, I wonder where he came up with that phrase? At least he got it right, unlike one of our esteemed former VPs!</p>

<p>But again, rolleyes, "wasting the minds of a whole generation?"</p>

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<p>Yes, some writers are predictable and insufferable.</p>

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<p>Here is one such piece of research:</p>

<p><a href=“http://mba.yale.edu/faculty/pdf/kahn_longtermlabor.pdf[/url]”>http://mba.yale.edu/faculty/pdf/kahn_longtermlabor.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>I believe there are other similar analyses on this topic which have been cited in several press articles in the last few years.</p>

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<p>Didn’t John McCain make a similar argument about dumping all of our debt on the young, not just education debt, but ALL debt? Where was Paul then?</p>

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<p>Paul Krugman has been sounding the alarm about trying to reduce the deficit right now in the midst of a recession, from 2009, I think. Well, he is right: consider Europe’s plight right now, look at UK, Spain, Italy, Greece etc. Austerity is not working.</p>

<p>I do agree, though that he is insufferable. And because of his shrillness, I don’t think he will ever make it to any of the President’s short list for any administration position.</p>

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<p>You want Mary Poppins? Economics is the dismal science? Cassandra was insufferable too. </p>

<p>College graduates today have the highest debt in history. It’s less afordable Enrollment is flat and graduation rates have declined. We are 10th among developed economies in college attendance.</p>

<p>The outcome? We rank behind Canada and every European nation–except for Italy and Germany–in social mobility as measured by comparing incomes across generations. In the US if you are born rich or poor, you are more likely to stay that way.</p>

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<p>Sounds like you have some ideological problem with Krugman, and as a result, try to find a minor counterpoint to every little thing. </p>

<p>College tuition has soared in the past 30 years and a degree is worth less than it ever has been. The younger generation are going into more debt ever than before and are paying into social security which likely won’t exist for them. </p>

<p>Sending everyone to community college isn’t the solution, and the fact that it even is suggested shows there’s a problem (in the past, your average college was affordable, and community college wasn’t necessary to cut costs.)</p>

<p>Turn off the ideological blinders and maybe you’ll see that he has some points (not that he’s saying anything new).</p>

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<p>One difference is that a much bigger percentage of those young people are going to college today. Decrease the demand and the inflationary easy money policies and college prices should go down.</p>

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<p>We used to have a lot more in grant money but greatly expanding access resulted in far less grant money and far more in loans so there’s one aspect of higher costs and higher debt.</p>

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<p>Did you actually read my message - the part where I said:</p>

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<p>Nor did I suggest that it was. But neither is perpetuating the myth that you have to go to a pricey private college - or, for that matter, to a prestigious public flagship - to get a good education and prepare yourself for a fulfilling career.</p>

<p>I live in a declining blue collar community. I have friends and neighbors who manage to send their kids to college in spite of low incomes and job insecurities. Do their kids go to private schools or to the state flagship? A few, yes. But most go to one of the fine directionals we have in this state, or begin at the community college and then transfer. The notion that everyone should be entitled to go to the schools that make CC eyes light up is as wrong as the notion that everyone should be able to drive a BMW.</p>

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<p>The costs of community colleges in many places isn’t all that low. In my state, a CC class is only a bit less than the one at state u.</p>

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<p>If I couldn’t afford full pay for my kids, I would have pushed them to get the best grades possible so they could go to some of those top tier schools with aids (need based or merit). In the US, more than ever before, a good education is the best equalizer.</p>

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<p>katliamom, I think that’s the exception. Is it because the CC cost is high, or because the state university cost is low?</p>

<p>Where I live, community college is about $84 a credit hour, in-district. At our closest state university, it’s $283. Plus fees and books, etc., of course, at both places. The state school has been raising tuition substantially every year, while the CC has been holding the line with very small increases.</p>

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<p>Our local cc has the following rates for residents (tuition only):
Lower division 299 and below
$96.39 per credit per quarter
$1310.94 full time per quarter
$3932.82 full time per year</p>

<p>Upper division credits:
$219.34 per credit
$2257.88 full time per quarter
$6773.40 full time per year</p>

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<p>“katliamom, I think that’s the exception. Is it because the CC cost is high, or because the state university cost is low?”</p>

<p>It’s because the state doesn’t fund either, much. So the cost is high and it’s tough to get classes.</p>

<p>** updated - annasdad, in our state it’s $125 per credit hour (more for specialized courses, such as nursing) vs. state u at $200… so it’s still less at the cc…</p>

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<p>I wonder how many TYPICAL (not CC) American families there are that honestly believe you have to go to a tippy top expensive private to get a good education. I hear people say all the time that if only people would get it through their heads that it isn’t true, this wouldn’t be such a problem… and I just don’t think that’s the world most of us are living in to begin with, I think those people are largely in the minority. I think there are a lot more families strugging to pay for community college and the local state school than these arguments acknowledge.</p>

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<p>Thanks for the link to the Krugman article, annasdad. </p>

<p>I agree the country could use less melodrama from the NYT podium. The writer appears to have regressed from intelligent economist to political hack.</p>

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<p>Krugman was always… hmmm… passionate. It wouldn’t hurt if he turned down the melodrama – but I wouldn’t go as far as calling him a ‘hack.’ Over the years, I’m amazed at how many times he’s been right in his economic projections.</p>

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<p>^^as the old saying goes: a broken clock is correct twice a day. :)</p>

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<p>And you would think with the steeeep prices of the 4 year schools, enrollment at community colleges would be up. Not so in NJ:</p>

<p>Community colleges had experienced several years of enrollment growth during the recession, as unemployed workers went back to school to learn new jobs. But enrollment statewide dropped 2.4 percent this year, with 14 of the 19 county colleges reporting lower enrollment.</p>

<p>[Atlantic</a> Cape Community College limiting purchases and hiring as enrollment drops - pressofAtlanticCity.com: Breaking News](<a href=“http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/news/breaking/atlantic-cape-community-college-limiting-purchases-and-hiring-as-enrollment/article_f8ec0f4e-5c1e-11e1-8afc-0019bb2963f4.html]Atlantic”>http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/news/breaking/atlantic-cape-community-college-limiting-purchases-and-hiring-as-enrollment/article_f8ec0f4e-5c1e-11e1-8afc-0019bb2963f4.html)</p>

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<p>I agree completely with emaheevul. Once you leave the rarified world of CC (and I love rarified worlds), I don’t believe the number of families that believe that it’s necessary to go away to a top school and that a state flagship “won’t do” is all that large. I agree with her that there are a heck of a lot more people for whom student debt means community college and / or directional state universities, for whom those things are what provide them / their children the leg up the ladder.</p>