<p>“Cornell’s alleged cutthroat nature is not really a matter of opinion, unless you want to redefine cutthroat to be heavy workload, which people may or may not find stressful.”</p>
<p>OF COURSE it is a matter of opinion–yours versus mine. Everything is relative and based on our own impressions and experiences. Your “cutthroat” threshold may be different from mine. Again, it is a subjective distinction, not an objective one.</p>
<p>In any case, I’m glad Cornell has been good for you.</p>
<p>Please go on and describe how Cornell is cutthroat. I’d be willing to put some weight on your opinion if you were a Cornell student who had experiences to draw from. From what I gather, you were a parent who visited Cornell (maybe multiple times) and somehow decided Cornell was cutthroat. Your opinion is invalid in my mind unless you can cite some specific reason for coming to that conclusion.</p>
<p>Further, specific instances of cutthroat behavior does not make an entire academic environment cutthroat and I am confident in saying that on the whole, the Cornell environment is very supportive.</p>
<p>A cutthroat environment isn’t entirely objective, but it’s not entirely subjective either. If you are going to claim Cornell is cutthroat, you need to show that there is widespread ruthless activity that permeates the academic culture. Even if you were able to show an instance or two of someone doing something cutthroat, that still wouldn’t support your claim about the entire “environment” of Cornell. So while cutthroat may have a subjective aspect, you still need to be able to show there is a pattern of widespread behavior that indicates this is the culture of the environment (and that can be done objectively). Then the subjective aspect of the debate is whether or not those specific behaviors qualify as cutthroat.</p>
<p>Not all opinions are deserving of equal standing and if you are going to throw around negative descriptions about something as important as the environment of Cornell, I will continue to call you out on it on these forums. Because thus far, you have given me no reason to give any weight to your opinion.</p>
<p>At this point it would be a complete waste of time to detail my experiences or impressions. No matter what I say, you will disagree. And your opinion is probably closer to that of a prospective student, since you currently attend Cornell and I am “just” a parent. So let’s go with your perspective. OK?</p>
<p>No! That’s my point. Go ahead and detail your experiences and impressions. I said I’ll disagree no matter what as long as you don’t do that. You continue not to do that. I even just laid out exactly what you should tell me so we can turn this into a constructive forum. True, you can’t change my experiences, but I would much rather engage with you on your experiences and impressions than blanket statements. I’d probably offer a different perspective on how to interpret your experiences, but at least those would be views I could respect. </p>
<p>I also am not a current student. I graduated in 2011. I didn’t claim my view was the be-all-end-all, I said it was significantly more valid if you aren’t going to support your very serious claims. Parents’ opinions matter a lot and so do your impressions, but if you’re going to say a school is cutthroat, please back it up with something. Anything!</p>
<p>Well, yes, at highly competitive schools, the ability to “handle” the challenges is a very big part of their review. There is no one example to point to or formula, but a kid’s ability to thrive there (in class and other) and stick it out, is critical to many instutional considerations.</p>
<p>Some of the questions related to the challenges are dependent on major. But, in general, with the trend toward holistic reviews getting broader and broader, top colleges are working hard to move from the old “cutthroat” images to more cooperative realities. This is one reason outlier sorts of kids, perfect everything, unilateral focus, some sense of predermined future career successes, are not having as easy a time with admits as a decade or two ago. </p>
<p>Cornell’s issues have more to do with size and the somewhat remote location. And, for anyone actually working in a U environment, the sad reality is that most schools actively underplay crises like suicides.</p>
<p>mikey, you already said you weren’t going to consider my perspective since I wasn’t a student: </p>
<p>“I’d be willing to put some weight on your opinion if you were a Cornell student who had experiences to draw from.”</p>
<p>“Not all opinions are deserving of equal standing.”</p>
<p>…and I already explained that we had different thresholds for “cutthroat”-ness and competition. </p>
<p>There is nothing more to say. I don’t owe you anything and I don’t actually care whether you agree with me or not (in case you couldn’t tell). Engaging in further discussion is going to be fruitless for both of us, and boring to everyone else.</p>
<p>I think it’s pretty clear from my context that the reason I was dismissive of your opinion is because you’ve done literally nothing to back it up except state it. I on the other hand provided my first hand experiences, which I do think count for something. That’s not to say my experiences are everything, but they’re a heckuva lot more than someone who seems to be giving opinions about something they have no qualification to give an opinion on. I don’t go to the UChicago forums and describe their school as cutthroat. I’m much more precise in how I express my opinion and have said things on the Cornell boards about how UChicago has a reputation for being intense and competitive (usually in the context of a prospective student deciding which school to choose).</p>
<p>If you talked to Cornell students who described it as cutthroat and can describe what they told you, then we can have a discussion and maybe others can learn by reading from it. Yes, it’s true that a parent of a student who didn’t attend Cornell likely will not have the most useful perspective on something like the environment of a university they did not attend, but that hasn’t stopped you from providing it and claiming you know what Cornell is like. But if for example you were to say you were informed of your impression of Cornell because you received numerous stories from students, then we could have a constructive discussion. Throughout this entire debate I think I’ve been fairly clear what I expected from you to support your opinion. </p>
<p>And here’s the thing, I’m clearly passionate about Cornell enough to participate in these forums to give my 2 cents for prospective/current students and parents. So when someone gives what at face value seems like an uninformed opinion on Cornell that others can read, I will call you out. If you want to push back with something substantive, I welcome it. Thus far you have provided no reason why your opinion should be valid. Give me some reason and I’ll at least begin to consider it. </p>
<p>You don’t owe me anything. But for me, the purpose of this discussion forum is to provide useful information and it can be read by anyone, given its public nature. So I think it’s definitely in the community’s best interest for you to state why you think Cornell is cutthroat so we can actually discuss the merits of that claim.</p>
<p>Wow, guys. Interesting discussion. Sally, thanks for sharing your opinions. I don’t know what the source of that pit is–as I said, we really didn’t think at this level before, so it could just be fear at attempting such a reach–the potential for disappointment is that much greater. As for Human Ecology at other schools, it’s actually that my son is interested in a program within the dept of Human Development in the CHE. It’s very specific, which is why I am being vague to protect his privacy. And as you note, paying instate tuition is a plus. </p>
<p>Mikey and csdad, thank you for the positive words. It is particularly encouraging to hear that csdaughter is having a good experience even though it was a reach, as it would be for my son. Mikey, if you are typical of Cornell students, my S would be happy to be accepted and attend. He loves nothing better than a rigorous, but civil, debate! And it is truly heartwarming to see your devotion to your school. </p>
<p>He is visiting next week. We shall see. </p>
<p>Thanks again.</p>
<p>Glad the debate was useful to you. My feeling is while the potential for disappointment may be great, the potential for regret is greater. And let’s be real, Cornell CAN be stressful and I think it some point is for every student (probably several points). I would never describe it as cutthroat, however and if the stress does start to build to unacceptable levels of frustration, Cornell provides more services than most colleges to deal with them. As a parent, if your child ends up experiencing undue stress, I advise you encourage your child to be proactive about confronting that stress.</p>
<p>MomofNEA, I am also glad to help. And yes, mikey’s devotion to Cornell says a lot–plus he and others have spelled out many strong arguments for your son to consider it.</p>
<p>My initial reaction to your post was based on my experience of the last year with my son–I saw some parallels in what you said about yours. Visiting Cornell now is great. Hopefully you can also visit a variety of other schools of different sizes, campus cultures, academic intensity and so on. And then, after he has applied and (hopefully) been admitted to a good assortment, I would encourage you to have him do an overnight in a dorm where he gets to “shadow” a current student, attend classes, and go to a party or two. Finding that “fit” made all the difference for my son.</p>
<p>Good luck!</p>
<p>Wise words all around…I need to keep them all in mind…</p>
<p>"…while the potential for disappointment may be great, the potential for regret is greater." You’re right, and this is pretty insightful for someone so young. I need to remind my S of this when he gets cold feet.</p>
<p>“Finding that “fit” made all the difference…” I so agree about fit. I just hope he knows it when he sees it!</p>
<p>MomofNEA - Plus the tuition break for in-state students at CHE is something to consider.
My D is a senior in CHE and was admitted with less than wonderful stats. She was thrilled about her major and brought that across in her essays. She does work very hard with long hours but she would not describe the environment as cut-throat and has been consistently on the Dean’s list. She is enjoying wonderful relationships with her profs, doing funded research in Ithaca and overseas, got a fabulous and paid internship this past summer through the CHE alumni network and will be very sad to see it end this year. (Although one of her profs is recommending funded grad school for her…) The tuition break would have made it very nice! :)</p>
<p>While my D is not in CHE, her experiences are similar to others posting here- she would not describe Cornell as “cut throat” but rather as workload intense. Students don’t compete against each other in a ruthless fashion, as “cut throat” would imply but rather against themselves and their grades from high school, at least initially. When that first B or below shows up on the transcript, they learn to accept that this is not an indicator of failure, but rather as a testament to the intensity of Cornell. They learn to adjust their view of a B or C and they learn, over time, that a B from Cornell is very respectable. They learn to adjust to the stress of Cornell’s workload if they have the proper attitude about grades and they have outlets for stress - clubs, Greek life, travel abroad etc. </p>
<p>These students have all made it into Cornell. As the dean of the CAS school said on the first day, there will be many days that students doubt their abilities, especially after a bad grade or two, but they are worthy to be there because they earned their spot. </p>
<p>If a potential student does not fall in love with Cornell or feel the “fit” as my D did, their experience might be different. We knew Cornell was the only school for our D when she described her visit to the campus as “the best and worst day of her life.” It was the best day because she loved and identified with the school and everything that is Cornell, but it was the worst if she did not get in! That’s “fit” and as a result, her essay for admission practically wrote itself. When the going gets tough, this feeling of “fit” is what helps her through it all.</p>
<p>I agree with what cormom15 says. I would also say that it’s not important that someone have some magic feeling when they visit Cornell to “know” it’s right for them. Not everyone is blessed with such an experience an quite honestly, it’s impossible to take in what Cornell is truly about from a campus visit. I would say I had a full experience at Cornell in my 4 years and still didn’t experience everything there is.</p>
<p>mickey765 - Yes, so true about the “feeling” about Cornell. I should add the back story - D had heard stories about Cornell her whole life as her Grandfather attended for Engineering - and he is a great story teller. We visited several times when she was a small child but not again until she was a senior in HS, and not until the end of September. She barely remembered the previous visits but must have been paying attention to the stories. We more less visited on a whim because she added Cornell onto her list at the very last minute. We had no idea how much she had wanted to apply to Cornell until that visit. </p>
<p>She has only accomplished a few of the things on her bucket list thus far but, the point is, she realizes all the possibilities at Cornell and is trying to experience some of what makes Cornell what it is when is isn’t swamped with work. She may only get to a fraction of things Cornell has to offer…but that’s ok.</p>
<p>A Cornell admissions officer who gave a presentation at my school last fall specifically said that the most important thing to show in your Cornell application is your “fit”.
Since my high school is really competitive and sends a lot of kids to Ivies every year, he flat out told us the reason our school hadn’t been doing too well (in terms of admitted students to Cornell) recently was probably because people didn’t show that they “belonged” at Cornell and didn’t specifically explain why they would succeed there.</p>
<p>
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<p>…my guess is that in addition, admissions sensed that a good percentage of these students were thinking of Cornell as a “back up” & it came through in their applications.</p>
<p>I think it’s wrong to think about Cornell admissions in term of “fit” vs. “stats”. There is no such thing as being the right “fit” without the proper “stats.” “The stats” such as GPA and test scores are a component of “fit”. If they meet a minimum standard, they are a necessary, but not sufficient condition to be admitted. Same goes for the essays, ECs, and any other experiences/ideas relevant to an application. And being exception in one component of an application doesn’t necessarily compensate for weaknesses in other areas. It’s more a matter of how strong are the strengths, and are the weaknesses too weak. And of course, how does one applicant compare to another applicant, since Cornell can only admit so many people.</p>
<p>In the case of my D, it was actually when she went on the college visit that she realized that her “stats” (test scores, ec’s, grades) were in line for the school she was applying for and and the type of student they were looking for and this made her a good “fit.” True, some components of her application were better than others but, all in all, she had a decent chance if taken as a whole. She was excited because she felt that she was the type of student that would “fit” based on the “stats.” </p>
<p>That said, she knew that there was stiff competition, even with her “stats,” so the essay became a critical component to convey her true desire to actually attend Cornell. When looking at two people with similar qualified “stats,” and comparing apples to apples, the one that can demonstrate their “fit” and true desire to attend Cornell may have an advantage over the one that ignores this because not everyone who applies to Cornell with qualifying “stats” wants to attend. The web-site and the nature of the supplemental essay questions make that point pretty clear.</p>
<p>Update: S visited Cornell, visited a few other schools, retook the SAT and went up 120 points (into the safer 2100+ zone), and hit submit for ED to Cornell last night. Thanks again for helping us get there!</p>