<p>On the topic of colleges relying on SATs more than grades, let’s not forget that kids (and frequently with parental involvment) have begun to cheat on them as well.</p>
<p>I wouldn’t even know how to do that to be honest. I’ve heard of hiring someone with a fake ID to take it for you. That’s stupid, because say for example Johnny hires this person. Johnny gets a 2350. Johnny gets accepted to HYPSM. Johnny goes to HYPSM. Johnny flunks out because he can’t handle HYPSM. </p>
<p>I see that as a very possible consequence.</p>
<p>Almost no one ever flunks out of HYPS unless they try really hard at it.</p>
<p>I’m pretty sure HYPSM wouldn’t be HYPSM if it was easy.</p>
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<p>HYPSM have always had the “gentleman’s C” which is now the gentleman’s/gentlewoman’s B. Lots of people skate by at these schools and come out with respectable GPAs even if they’re dolts. Or cheaters who got there dishonestly.</p>
<p>Many of the super-selective schools do bend their admissions standards a lot for special cases (relatives of big donors, recruited athletes, princelings, etc.). Presumably, they do have some “gut” courses and majors where such admits can pass to graduate. For example, H has the famously hard Math 55a-55b, but also has Math Ma-Mb, which is a slow pace frosh calculus course (covers a semester of frosh calculus over a year, like high school AP calculus AB).</p>
<p>M may be somewhat different from HYPS in this respect, in terms of having a more extensive and rigorous set of general education requirements. So the minimum academic qualifications to be able to graduate at M is likely higher than at HYPS. (Note that #23 did not include M.)</p>
<p>“I’m pretty sure HYPSM wouldn’t be HYPSM if it was easy.”</p>
<p>My d. preceptors and teaches at P… Believe me: the hardest (required) thing about P. is getting in.</p>
<p>(I deliberately left the M out of my note 'cause I don’t know.)</p>
<p>“The message isn’t always that subtle. I know students whose every school project and paper is parent-assisted and parent-edited,”</p>
<p>Yes. This starts at a very young age and has always been a pet peeve of mine. The teachers would assign projects to young children who clearly did not have the ability or means to complete them, and the parents who assisted, of course, got the highest grade. I used to joke with my kids and ask them what grade I got. I am completely guilty of “helping” (hah) with “their” projects. I am happy to post that the school my youngest (10) is attending now allows them time to complete their projects at school on their own. NO parent participation.</p>
<p>This thread is a nice counterbalance to all the threads full of outrage at those cheating Asians.</p>
<p>^^^ It’s not considered cheating if its for the good for the family?</p>
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I have 3 degrees from Stanford and have taken classes at several other schools. I found it far more difficult to get an A at Stanford in most classes than to get an A at other less selective schools I have attended, which are not known for grade inflation. </p>
<p>Many students I’ve known at Stanford also did not think the work was easy. When I was a freshman, they had counselors come to the dorms shortly after the first major exams because so many students were having trouble coping with getting the first major exam B’s and/or C’s of their lives. It’s not unusual to for classes to curve grades to a B+. That sounds high with grade inflation, but when you consider that the vast majority of students are talented people who do quality work, had near all A’s in HS, and are not suddenly going to start doing poor work in college, then it becomes clear that a large portion of students in the class are going to be unhappy with their grade after the curve. Most students I’ve known enthusiastically recommended the school to their friends and families who were accepted, but a few did not not. And when they did not, they all gave the same reason about difficulty in maintaining high grades. One used the phrase “struggling to keep our heads above water.” There are also others who have no problem maintaining high grades in all classes. The guy who graduated with the highest GPA in engineering during my year only received one grade less than A in all engineering classes during his 4 years (he was a MS&E major, so engineering classes rarely had complex math and problem sets).</p>
<p>The degree of perceived difficulty varies quite a bit from class to class and major to major. For example, I had a pre-med class with average test grades in the 30s. The test grades were so low because the test questions were at a far more difficult level than anything one would expect from the textbook, and the number of questions was high enough that to finish the full test you couldn’t spend much time working through the questions Instead you had to intuitively know the answer (or at least that was my method). This class was curved to a low B. As you can imagine, many students studied extreme amounts and certainly didn’t complain about it being too easy. Many probably would have cheated, if there was a minimal risk situation, such as a take home exams where you were told to not use the textbook and spend no more than 1 hour. At the other end of the spectrum, I once had an engineering class where the professor said he didn’t like giving grades below an A because it discourages students. You’d get an A, so long as you did basic, satisfactory work. Grades below C are quite uncommon in just about all classes, but not unheard of. However, most students I’ve known would take steps to avoid having grades like this on their record, such as dropping or re-taking the class.</p>
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<p>It seems that the general trend we see on the various cheating articles, scandals, and threads is that the foreign cheaters cheat on standardized tests and transcripts in order to get admitted to US colleges. But domestic cheaters seem to be more focused on cheating on tests and papers once they are enrolled.</p>
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<p>And a fourth reason why students cheat: It’s culturally appropriate. In other words, why would anyone ever care about the thoughts of a lowly undergrad? Your job is to find and parrot the experts. It’s a very tough thing for som international students (yes, many from Asia) to get their heads wrapped around. What you’ve been taught to do back home is considered dishonest here.</p>
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<p>Seems pretty much culturally appropriate in the US then.</p>
<p>I don’t think there is any “epidemic.” I think it’s been done since the beginning of time, and it will continue to be done, because humans are humans. Technology may make it easier to cheat compared to “our day” in which cheating consisted of sticking an index card with the formulas up your sleeve, but pretending there’s an “epidemic” seems like that usual look-at-the-past-with-rose-colored-glasses nonsense.</p>
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<p>I.e. it is not that difficult to pass courses and graduate, even though one’s GPA would not be something to be proud of (though GPA is probably not a big concern for a developmental admit). Getting A grades is a different story, of course.</p>
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<p>I concur with with both data10 and ucbalumnus, based on my son’s STEM classes at Brown vs. similar classes at the state university. It’s much harder to get A’s in the elite schools. But merely graduating in the bottom quarter of the class should be quite manageable, especially if one cherry-picks known easier classes. These schools generally graduate well over 90% of the students who start there.</p>
<p>MommaJ that is my experience as well. From what I can tell its pretty common knowledge at our public high school who the cheaters are.</p>
<p>What struck me at our school as well was the number of affluent kids who purchased illegal “study drugs” to boost their performance on the SAT.</p>
<p>I do think cheating of all sorts is far more widespread than it used to be. Just looking at the SAT in my day you were called in to take it once and didnt think much of it. Then the SAT test prep industry mushroomed to give kids an advantage, and now you have kids taking drugs and apparently the advent of the “I’ll take your SAT test for you” industry. </p>
<p>Pretty tough and unfair on the kids who do things the right way when they see all the cheating that is going on around them.</p>