Most Prestigious University Ranking System

College Search & Selection
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<p>There are quite a few polls out there that rank the quality of education at universities & colleges. The USN&WR and the Gourman are 2 of the most popular polls, but the National Research Council (NRC) Report is considered the most prestigious, as it was commissioned by the National Academy of Sciences. It's also the most highly respected source for academic assessment. I wonder why many college applicants aren't familiar with it.</p>

<p>Unlike polls like USN&WR & Gourman, the NRC Report isn't a commercialized poll. This may be one reason, but it's probably the most respected source of its kind in determining the top schools in the nation. To my knowledge, the NRC Report was last published in '95 and comes out every 10 years. The top Ivies consistently place high in almost every poll, but you'd be surprised to see which schools fared the best according to the NRC Report. According to the NRC Report, Cal-Berkeley has the greatest number of highly regarded departments of any school in the U.S., as it finishes atop the Report. </p>

<p>Further, Michigan, Wisconsin, & Texas fared well in the NRC Report as well. These public universities are ranked as some of the top universities in the world according to the recent Institute for Higher Learning Top 500 World Universities and the Times of London Top 200 World Universities polls. You might be surprised to see that some schools that are highly regarded by USN&WR are not so highly rated by the NRC Report or the international polls. Go figure.</p>

2

<p>That's true enough and a good way to look at the overall power of a school however the US News focus is undergrad so they try to add some other factors. Both methods are somewhat valid.</p>

3

<p>"You might be surprised to see that some schools that are highly regarded by USN&WR are not so highly rated by the NRC Report or the international polls. Go figure."</p>

<p>It's not surprising at all. Some of the colleges in USNews (Brown, Dartmouth, Rice, etc.) are more undergrad focused than others.</p>

4

<p>The graduate programs largely determine the academic strength of any given department or program. The undergrads surely benefit from the quality of instruction offered by the renowned professors & graduate teaching assistants. It appears that everyone else knows this except for USN&WR.</p>

5

<p>Ranking the Rankings....hmm.</p>

<p>There could be money to be made in this. :-)</p>

6

<p>Except not every school grants undergrads access to its best professors; much more often than not, they're reserved for graduate students. And often, strength of graduate programs has little bearing on quality of undergraduate education, the case in point being Berkeley. It's not exactly a trickle down situation. USNWR is right in factoring in metrics that take into account such things as student to faculty ratio, four year grad rates, and class sizes. If the point here is to, as you say in your opening sentence, measure the "quality of education," then certainly with all other things being equal, a school with a 7:1 faculty ratio (Stanford) will offer its students a higher quality education than a school with 15:1 (Berkeley).</p>

<p>Further, whether the professors are renowned in their fields for their research has no bearing whatsoever on teaching capabilities, which directly translates into quality of education. If what you say is true, then a better education can be obtained at the University of Nebraska (sorry Huskers, just using a random example) because it's research oriented than at Williams College.</p>

7

<p>Actually it depends on what school you attend. At the University of Michigan, you have the professors conducting the main lectures. And the grad assistants lead the seminars & discussion groups in the lower level courses as a rule. In the upper level courses, you actually have the profs and no TA. I think it's like this at most of the top public schools. The classes are also relatively small in the upper level undergrad courses. </p>

<p>If you're that bright to start with, you won't require the personal attention of a professor anyway. The professors lecture and tell you where to focus your study. It pretty much plays out like this at most schools. The renowned professors at any school won't have much time to "hover" over you at any college. If you attend a top university, the teaching staff generally won't "spoon feed" you. If they had to do that, you don't belong at a top university.</p>

8

<p>Okay, I would expect that most schools would have professors conducting the main lectures. Your first paragraph is true of virtually any school. And I agree with the statement "If you're that bright to start with, you won't require the personal attention of a professor anyway." However, let's say your pretty bright, but not exactly brilliant. In terms of measuring "quality of education" which is the goal as you said, then a school that doesn't have large lectures is inferior to a counterpart that offers more professor interaction than simply office hours.</p>

9

<p>OK, let me get this straight. PEople are now worried about which RANKING SYSTEM is the most prestigious? Yeesh. Get a grip. It doesn't matter. Rankings are just another piece of information, and a limited one at best. </p>

<p>If you want to learn more about what your classroom experience will actually be like, I'd suggest seeing if the schools on your list participate in the National Survey of Student Engagement which actually asks current students about their experiences. Unfortunately, not all schools participate (the Ivy's don't but over 750 other schools do) and not all who do are willing to share the results. </p>

<p>For results for schools willing to share:
<a href="http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/ranknsse_brief.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/ranknsse_brief.php&lt;/a>
For participating institutions:
<a href="http://www.indiana.edu/%7Ensse/html/institutions.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.indiana.edu/~nsse/html/institutions.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>For the most recent NSSE report which does a very good job of comparing the differences in student experiences at research universities, LACs and masters universities on the aggregate level:
2004 report
<a href="http://www.iub.edu/%7Ensse/html/report-2004.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.iub.edu/~nsse/html/report-2004.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>And, finally, for an excellent list of questions to ask schools to get a real sense of what your educational experience will be like:
<a href="http://www.iub.edu/%7Ensse/html/pocket_guide_intro.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.iub.edu/~nsse/html/pocket_guide_intro.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>By the way, one interesting tidbit from the most recent survey:
19% of students at research universities reported working with faculty members on research compared to 33% at liberal arts colleges. Results based on surveys of over 600,000 students.</p>

11

<p>
[quote]
If you're that bright to start with, you won't require the personal attention of a professor anyway. The professors lecture and tell you where to focus your study. It pretty much plays out like this at most schools. The renowned professors at any school won't have much time to "hover" over you at any college. If you attend a top university, the teaching staff generally won't "spoon feed" you. If they had to do that, you don't belong at a top university.

[/quote]

I completely disagree with that. Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel that even the smartest of students can benefit from interaction with people who are more experienced and knowledgable. Just because someone can work alone doesn't mean he should.</p>

12

<p>This is my opinion. It's fine that you have your own opinion. If you're more comfortable with a top notch small liberal arts college like Swarthmore or Amherst, then you should go there. The research at the top research institutions is normally on a completely different level than that of smaller "non-research" schools. The research at the top research institutions is considered to be "world class". These institutions are ranked among the best in the world. Everyone is looking for something different in a school. Some actually prefer the larger research-oriented schools. </p>

<p>Top Research Schools:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.philosophicalgourmet.com/topresearch.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.philosophicalgourmet.com/topresearch.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://thecenter.ufl.edu/research2003.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://thecenter.ufl.edu/research2003.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

13

<p>when I go to school, I pay money to be taught by a professor. Not someone who's 24 and just took the class I am taking 3 years ago. Come on.</p>

<p>It sounds like you are saying professors are unnecessary</p>

<p>Why not just stay home and spend 5 hours a day at the library?</p>

14

<p>Miriam Boo, you forget that people have different learning styles. I know I wouldn't survive at a large university, because I learn best when externally motivated by teachers who I know care about me as a person.</p>

<p>There's pros and cons to each approach, neither is really "better" then the other.</p>

15

<p>Miriam, You're absolutely right: what's good for one person, might not be right for another. That's why I recommend really looking at the NSSE data to see the differences between research universities, liberal arts colleges, comprehensive colleges, and masters-level universities so that each individual can make an informed decision. </p>

<p>As I noted, you're more likely to do research with a faculty member if you go to an LAC than you are if you attend a research university. Sure, 19% of undergrads do get to participate in research at many research universities --- but the plum research roles in "world class research" are more likely to go to graduate students, than they are to undergraduates. That is, after all, one of the primary missions of any research university: to educate graduate students.</p>

<p>There were actually quite a few things that surprised me when I took a close look at the NSSE data --- for instance, students at liberal arts colleges spend more time involved with extracurriculars, they are more likely to ask questions and participate in class discussions, they study abroad more often, and they even go to concerts more often than students at research universities. Their tests are more likely to be essay and short answer tests than multiple choice. They report greater interactions with people of different races and ethnicities and greater satisfaction with the way their education prepared them for their careers. I also found it interesting that first generation college students are more likely to choose a research university than a liberal arts college --- perhaps the prestige of a "name brand" is more important to the children of non-college educated parents, or perhaps educated parents better understand the intrinsic differences between liberal arts colleges and research universities. </p>

<p>Again, the NSSE data is based on interviews with over 600,000 students at 700 doctoral universities, masters universities, and liberal arts colleges. </p>

<p>Now, should everyone go to an LAC? Of course not. Many students may indeed prefer the atmosphere at a research university, others would prefer the learning atmosphere at a master's level university --- but I think all too frequently people don't really understand going in what the day-to-day differences in educational experiences between a research university, a masters level university and a liberal arts college will be.</p>

<p>It all boils down to two things --- know yourself and how you learn best, and know what you're buying when you send in your deposit. :)</p>

16

<p>Soccerguy, you're making too many generalizations about larger public institutions. FYI, professors do lecture in the lower level courses at larger institutions. Yet TA's lead the discussion groups & seminars. The only exception to this was my lower level French courses in which native speaking grad students exlusively taught the classes. However, profs normally teach the upper level courses. If you really want to get close & personal with a particular professor, you can volunteer to help with one of his/her research projects. If you're enthusiastic enough, you'll succeed in convincing him/her. Many premeds & preprofessional students actually do this. </p>

<p>One of my friends actually was listed as a contributing researcher in his chem prof's research, when it was published in some scientific journal. There are opportunities galore at the top research schools. It depends on how much you want it. The curriculum is usually so rigorous that you don't have much time to participate in research & indulge in extracurricular activities. Personally, I've had 5 "big name" profs, and I felt so intimidated with 2 of them. </p>

<p>I once took an upper level motivational psych class, although I wasn't a psych major. The prof was Atkinson himself...the guy that developed the TAT (Thematic Apperception Test). Only 16 people were in the class, and Atkinson was quite friendly & approachable. But I felt so intimidated in his class, since I wasn't a major. I was always afraid that I would say something "stupid" (LOL). And you better prepare yourself to be "put on the spot", if a prof leads your class. I never could prepare enough for his classes IMO.</p>

17

<p>I've listed the links to a few polls. Yet I couldn't find any Gourman rankings on the web. If someone has the lastest edition of the Gourman report, will you please post the OVERALL top 20 undergrad programs and top 20 grad programs? I'm not interested in the rankings among the different fields. I'm just curious about this poll, but I don't want to purchase a copy.</p>

18

<p>And just when we thought the nightmare was over, here comes 2 more polls...international polls. I can't say that I fully agree with any poll, including these 2. But you should know that these polls are out there. The nightmare continues. </p>

<p>The Times of London Top 200 Universities in the world:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.epfl.ch/soc/etudes/pdf/world-rankingsUnis.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.epfl.ch/soc/etudes/pdf/world-rankingsUnis.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The American schools that appear in the top 50 are Harvard (1), Cal-Berkeley (2), MIT (3), Cal Tech (4), Stanford (7), Yale (8), Princeton (9), Chicago (13), Texas (15), Columbia (19), Cal-San Francisco (20), Cornell (23), Cal-San Diego (24), Johns Hopkins (25), UCLA (26), Penn (28), Michigan (31), Illinois (35), Carnegie Mellon (38), Massachusetts (45), Duke (52). </p>

<p>Institute for Higher Learning Top 500 Universities in the world:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.ed.sjtu.edu.cn/ranking.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.ed.sjtu.edu.cn/ranking.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The American schools that appear in the top 50 are Harvard (1), Stanford (3), Cal-Berkeley (4), MIT (5), Cal Tech (6), Columbia (7), Princeton (8), Chicago (9), Yale (11), Cornell (12), Cal-San Diego (13), UCLA (14), Penn (15), Wisconsin (16), Washington (17), Cal-San Francisco (18), Johns Hopkins (19), Michigan (21), Illinois (25), Washington Univ.-St Louis (28), NYU (29), Rockefeller Univ (30), Northwestern (31), Duke (32), Minnesota (33), Cal-Santa Barbara (34), Colorado (35), Texas-Austin (36), Texas-Southwestern Med Ctr (38), Penn State (39), Vanderbilt (39), Cal-Davis (41), Pitt (43), Rutgers (43), Cal-Irvine (47), Maryland (47). </p>

<p>The EC apparently is up in arms that many of its universities didn't fare well in these international polls.</p>