MSM vs Mannes vs Juilliard

College Majors Music Major
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<p>Tortoise:</p>

<p>No one is saying that you don’t need to play at a very high level to succeed in music, anyone who has spent anytime around music students knows that (put it this way, the kids entering conservatories today probably play as well or better then many graduates of conservatories did a generation ago. One of my S’s teacher is a principal in a well known orchestra, they graduated from conservatory and got a job in the orchestra about 30 years ago…the person didn’t really dedicate themselves until they got to conservatory, had been an okay player in high school…and quite honestly, I don’t think they play today as well as some of the kids I have seen at the pre college level…on violin kids pretty much have to dedicate themselves by the time they are 10 or 11 to serious work to even be able to get into conservatory, it is the way it is. In many ways, you are correct, it is like training for the olympics, I am not going to argue that.</p>

<p>When I said about students finding a teacher they can work with, I meant it, there are a lot of ‘great’ teachers out there that many students find they have a hard time working with, and the ‘great teacher’ might not work for everyone. I know several violinists who studied with Delay i n her prime, and they basically said in some ways it was a joke, because everyone wanted to study with her, so she had some ridiculous number of students (fortunately, she had some assistants who were world class themselves).Likewise, often the ‘famous performer’ teachers are not good teachers…or may only work with certain students well. When I say want to study with, I don’t mean because the teacher is nicey nicey and gives them milk and cookies, the good teachers often are difficult people, people like Galamian, Fuchs and others were known for being difficult people but great teachers…I also know teachers who are nicey nicey to their students, the students love them and their students often don’t play all that well…when I said want to study with, I meant that they could be driven forward with, could work with. Music teaching is very much like an apprentice and master relationship and it is pretty much a personal one, a teacher that works well with one student might not work with another, and that is the point, a great teacher is one that can teach particular students to fly, teaching calculus is pretty much a rote, generalized skill, teaching an instrument is a 1 to 1 with the student and works differently for any student.</p>

<p>You also made my point for me, when you said ‘go to NEC or Juilliard, Dummy’…why should they go to Juilliard or NEC if the teacher otherwise was great? Why shouldn’t they go to Rural university X with the great teacher since all they do is lock themselves in a practice room and work with the teacher? The answer is that going to Juilliard or NEC with a great teacher also means being around kids who are going to be as good or better then you are, it means playing in world class orchestras, it means playing in chamber if you don’t get one of the kids who thinks they are the next Sarah Chang at a very high le vel, it means having the opportunity to be in all kinds of ensembles, it also means being in a place and time where you can start making contacts as well…when I say a great environment counts, I mean that combined with a great teacher counts, the student with the great teacher at a so so school doesn’t have all the benefits at other places with a great teacher, that’s all. </p>

<p>Anyone planning to make it in music these days has to be playing at a high level, that is a given, but it also isn’t enough. Most musicians are not going to land gigs at high level orchestras (a pool that is both shrinking and also is dominated by a fact that musicians stay with those orchestras for many decades) and most working musicians if they are going to work in music need a lot of skills on top of the high level playing skills. You can be someone who has won 10 competitions, can play paganini at double speed, have technical skills that make music teachers drool, and if you have the personality of a dead fish or play robotically, you won’t easily get gigs that most musicians live on. Even orchestras, with their blind auditions, often find that musicians whose skills are smoking in the audition don’t work out, because they turn out to be dead players, wooden or don’t fit the group dynamics. </p>

<p>The thing is, the classical music world you posit is rapidly changing, the music world is, and a lot of what working musicians need is not going to be sitting behind a screen playing at a high levels nor is it going to be impressing artists management (put it this way, high level soloists across all the solo instruments, is probably 100 people or so in the world, the ones who get the dates with the high level orchestras, etc). Other then the big orchestras, ensemble work and gig work can be as much a factor as technical skill because quite frankly, I can almost guarantee that no matter how good someone is, how good their skills in music are, there are plenty of others who are equal or maybe even better, and often the person getting the work does so because they know people, because they have demonstrated they are easy to work with and somehow are musicians, not just technicians. Not long ago someone I know, who graduated from Juilliard under Delay, who is a working musician in NYC and is pretty successful, was commenting on kids coming out of places like Juilliard, and he said a lot of them hit a brick wall when they come out, that they believe as you are saying, that because they play at a high level, have won concerto competitions, etc, that that is all they need, and they come out, act like jerks (either consciously or unconsciously), think that they are going to get that slot in the NY Phil, don’t, and realize their skills are great but then find out no one wants to work with them, especially the kids who have gone through their training with teachers who disdain ensemble work as ‘inferior’ …</p>

<p>The Olympic analogy fails for a good reason, it leaves out that music is an art form. A close analogy to what most music is is a team sport like soccer, while the members of the Women’s soccer team that won the gold medal are all high level, they also get chosen because they can play on a team, there are women’s soccer players not on the team because they didn’t gell with the coach or players (in 1980, Herb Brooks chose players who weren’t the best amateurs necessarily but rather were ones he thought had the skills, desire and willingness to listen that he thought would work)…in most olympic sports, though, there is a clear cut winner, if you are in a foot race, it is who hits the tape first; in diving, who performs the dives the best. Probably the closest thing to music I can think of is figure skating, where the winner is someone who both skates as perfectly as possible but also has artistry; the pure technical skater who can do quads and triple jumps but has no artistry isn’t going to win, same with a musician who has the technical chops but lacks the rest.</p>

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<p>Please, everyone, just stop feeding this thread. I am concerned for those who are lurking here, particularly young people, for the distorted views of music study and work as represented here. The question has been answered (via PM if necessary). Let’s end this discussion now: it is not useful to anyone who needs information from the forum and may even upset or discourage some.</p>

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<p>Gee whiz, glassharmonica, for someone so sensitive to the potential for non-existent slurs, you seem to have a difficult time with basic comprehension. Kindly reread the passage you quoted and call me in the morning.</p>

<p>I forgot about Sally T at Mannes. Good call, there. So, ok, there’s a case where one would weigh the respective merits of the two institutions if one had decided on her as one’s teacher. (I have no deep knowledge of NY violin faculties, btw. My intel’s 20 years out-of-date.)</p>

<p>musicprnt, yeah we basically agree…</p>

<p>Compmom, if prospective music students are frightened or discouraged by the yammerings they encounter on an anonymous message board then I tremble for their prospects in life. </p>

<p>Which remains me of something Joseph Fuchs once barked to a young violinist after he decided to flee Juilliard for a liberal arts university: </p>

<p>“Well,” he said, with a rumble of phlem, “if you can’t make it here, you’re d-mn well not going to make it.”</p>

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<p>It doesn’t actually make sense that “the potential for non-existent slurs” (whatever that means) would connote a facility with comprehension. Anyway, you wrote:</p>

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<p>which implies that, if you feel that Sally Thomas is the only teacher you can work with, you are an odd duck. Do I need to explain why this is an insult to that teacher? </p>

<p>When I wrote that you had a deep understanding of NYC string faculties I was being facetious. It is clear from your references that you are speaking from experiences in your past. </p>

<p>If you aren’t an aspiring or current conservatory student or the parent of one, why are you here? </p>

<p>Compmom, with all due respect, the opinions being expressed by musicprnt, fiddlefrog, and even tortoise are fairly mild, and not uncommon. I also don’t think that lastbird’s question was ever answered.</p>

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<p>glassharmonica, I see you’re raising your game. to wit:</p>

<p>“It doesn’t actually make sense that ‘the potential for non-existent slurs’ (whatever that means) would connote a facility with comprehension.”</p>

<p>Ha! Touche! Frankly, when I thumbed that passage out on my iPhone it struck me as a bit weak, but I figured this crowd wouldn’t notice and hit “reply.” Ah, the perils of hubris.</p>

<p>Permit me, however, to quibble with the following:</p>

<p>“which implies that, if you feel that Sally Thomas is the only teacher you can work with, you are an odd duck. Do I need to explain why this is an insult to that teacher?”</p>

<p>First, I didn’t “imply” anything: I stated it outright. Second, different people might characterize Ms. Thomas in different ways. But no one would call her “Sally Milquetoast.” No one would say, “If you can’t along with Sally, you can’t get along with anyone!” (I’m laughing as I type that.) Did I mention she had a pet CROW? As a kiddie violinist, many moons ago, I spent a summer working through Vieuxtemp #5 with her and, let me tell you, she’s the real deal. But I’m pretty sure she’d be the first person to say she’s not everyone’s cup of tea. I love her for that. So do a lot of others. But not everyone. </p>

<p>And then there’s this:</p>

<p>“If you aren’t an aspiring or current conservatory student or the parent of one, why are you here?”</p>

<p>Oh dear. I didn’t realize there was a membership requirement! Well, I’m the uncle of a soon-to-be conservatory student. Does that count? Yes, I just talked my niece into forgoing Duke University (an absurd institution), for a fine conservatory located neither in NY, Phil, or Boston. So do I qualify?</p>

<p>Re: my niece. As talented as she is, I don’t think she’s going to be a professional musician. Lacks the killer instinct. But she loves music. And she was accepted by her dream teacher (she chose the teacher first.) And, as I told her, this may be the only time in your life that you can devote yourself, fully and completely and before you succumb (as you will) to the mercantilist lures of our age, to this greatest and noblest of pursuits.</p>

<p>Read that last clause again. I mean it. Here’s some red meat for you, compmom. I spent all of one year in a conservatory environment (in addition to summer stuff.) I wasn’t terribly marvelous, but I was reasonably hard working, and very lucky. Lucky to count aspiring musicians infinitely more talented than I as colleagues. Lucky to be taught/coached/berated by some of the most gifted individuals imaginable. Lucky, above all, simply to make music with others who loved it as much as I did.</p>

<p>I “dropped out” because I didn’t have what it took to make it as a musician–at least not at the level that would satisfy my ego. And I say that with nothing but gratitude for the opportunity to “play around” with those who did have it. Besides, here’s the fact: My conservatory training, though brief, was the single most formative experience of my life. From it, I gained an appreciation for the art of practice, for the art of patience, and a taste of what it really means to pursue excellence.</p>

<p>Indispensable stuff for any productive life, I’d say.</p>

<p>I ended up choosing a career that was easier and more remunerative than music (which, I suppose, describes just about every career). But what success I’ve since experienced I attribute not to the superb education I received at subsequent institutions of higher learning. No, I attribute it directly to the time I spent, alone in my practice room, working and reworking some nightmare passage in hopes that Sally Thomas wouldn’t look at me like I was a loser…while her crow cawed derisively behind my back.</p>

<p>And, believe me, that’s no insult.</p>

<p>Tortoise out.</p>

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<p>Tortoise, thank you for introducing yourself so charmingly (<–written without irony this time.)</p>

<p>We generally introduce ourselves in the sticky thread at the top of the forum: <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/255424-musicians-parents-introduce-yourself.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/255424-musicians-parents-introduce-yourself.html&lt;/a&gt; Introductions are not required, of course, but it’s unusual for someone to jump in with such personality. Your introduction provides us with context, and now your remarks seem less abrasive and out-of the-blue, if not yet entirely avuncular. I love the story about Sally Thomas.</p>

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Yes… you never know who you are dealing with here. Until you do. Some of us know one another in real life: it’s such a small world.</p>

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<p>Also, I want to remark that this is beautifully expressed: </p>

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<p>Of my four kids, only one went on to a conservatory, but all studied music during their pre-college years. They have all remarked on how profoundly their early music training has affected their approach to their work and their lives.</p>

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<p>Glassharmonica, Awhile back I had asked people to “stop feeding this thread.” Just want to clarify that I was not referring to any problems whatsoever with posts by you or the others whom you listed.</p>

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<p>Compmom, this is turning out to be a pretty interesting discussion. With some pretty thoughtful people. Why shut it down?</p>

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<p>Rats! I thought the Law was the noblest of pursuits, at least that what Prof. Kingsfield thought. I really should have learned to play that recorder they handed me in 3rd grade. Anyway, in order to have a dream teacher, going to conservatory must at one point have been above going to a national university like Duke for T’s niece. Then it seems that the university was in the lead. In the end the conservatory won out. I think it would be useful for future music types, if more could be said as to the factors that went into the to and fro beyond that already expressed by T.</p>

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<p>In order for others to access any interesting discussions, including the one just suggested by Bartokrules, maybe a new thread could be started, with a relevant title. Just a thought.</p>

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<p>Bartokrules, I’ll try to get my niece to chime in on this. As she’s not nearly as loquacious as I am (although she is much nicer), you may be stuck with my “as told to…” version.</p>

<p>And if anyone cares to know, I’ll throw in the factors contributing to my 20/20 hindsight regret that I did not stick out the full four years at conservatory, despite the fact that I almost certainly would not have pursued a career in music anyway. But maybe that’s a big “whatever…”</p>

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<p>If you remember your statement:
“speaking from more experience then you can probably imagine”</p>

<p>You owe my imagination an apology.</p>

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<p>musicamusica if you think I have or will reveal the contours of my life on an anonymous public message board, yours is a sheltered life, indeed.</p>

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<p>per Mr T:
“If you really have experience, you agree. If you don’t, then you don’t know what you’re talking about. Few things in life are that simple; this is.”</p>

<p>Not looking for “the contours”. You outlined your vast experience, that disqualifies every other opinion, pretty well.</p>

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<p>musicamusica, no I did not. but feel free to judge whatever I say on its own merits. </p>

<p>shocking as this may seem to you, that is the only approach one can take on an anonymous message board, when you don’t know who is really talking and, therefore, whether their self-representations are accurate.</p>

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<p>Or, more to the point, complete</p>

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<p>This message board is pseudonymous but not necessarily anonymous.</p>

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<p>Nice distinction, glassharmonica. You do have an ear for language…</p>

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<p>Hey Everyone, </p>

<p>I was wondering whether legacy works at Juilliard? I am waiting for my prescreening results and I know that many pianists and violinists have disqualified the prescreening round in the past…but i have a sibling at juilliard so…</p>