"Musicology" - or "Science of Music"?

<p>Hi All, it is now time to really start thinking about S who is just about to start his Jr year in HS. He is a great kid, albeit LAZY. A phenomenal musician who plays piano, trumpet, guitar, and sings in the school choir and chamber group. Likes to compose, doesn't like lessons - likes to learn and play on his own terms. He is part of the Drama club and won a state award for his supporting role in last spring's musical. Took AP music theory as a soph last year and scored a 4 on the AP exam (Aural=5)</p>

<p>He is interested in Music. But not Performance. Not Theory. Not MT. He is interested in how music affects the brain - how the brain interprets music, etc. I have heard it referred to as Musicology?</p>

<p>Anyhow. I'm looking for suggestions on programs that would fit the bill - and maybe even some suggestions on schools or even careers. Perhaps Cognitive Sciences? I'm not even sure where to start. He is a bright kid - but because of bad work habits (which I'm hoping will turn around this year :rolleyes: )doesn't have the grades for a tier 1 school. Hasn't taken SAT yet. Based on some talks we've had to date, he'd prefer a smaller school, somewhere in the northeast...</p>

<p>Looking forward to some knowledge-sharing!!</p>

<p>That isn’t musicology, musicology is the study of music itself, the theory, analyzing how music is composed, what it means and so forth (all those people who write books about how Brahms first symphony was a piece of dreck/the greatest work ever written, taking 800 pages to explain why <em>lol</em>)</p>

<p>What you are talking about is cognitive neuro science specializing in music and how it is interpreted by our brains. There have been several books recently on the subject, including a book by Dr.Oliver Sachs and another book titled “Your brain on music”, the latter written by a neural scientist who in an earlier life had been a recording engineer (guys name is Daniel Letvin,your son might want to read the book:). </p>

<p>If your son is interested in that, it sounds like he would need to find a university program in neural science leading to a PHd if he wants to become a researcher in the field. I know Bard has a program that might fit the bill (the daughter of one of my son’s violin teachers goes there and I think is doing something related to this area) ,and Letvin is at McGill University heading a program called the Laboratory for Musical Perception, Cognition, and Expertise, so that might be a possibility,and I believe UC Berkely may have programs in neural science.</p>

<p>Thanks musicprnt! Actually he has already read both of the books you refer to - more than once! I will look into to the McGill & Bard programs. </p>

<p>I am struggling with the “career” part of this. I was an accounting major, now I am an accountant. DH was an engineering major, now he is an engineer. DD is an engineering major, (hopefully) she will be an engineer. So I tend to be a little narrow minded when it comes to thinking about one can actually DO with a non-professional major. Yet I can see his interest in this and would like to be able to encourage him.</p>

<p>Justa-</p>

<p>Accounting or engineering and similar fields train you for a specific field, as do for example musical performance,because they are geared that way, they are ‘applied’ fields so to speak.</p>

<p>But if you look at ‘straight science’ fields of any kind, they don’t necessarily have that track. Someone who goes through the process of becoming a physicist can end up as a teacher at the secondary level, they can end up as a researcher at a university while teaching, or they can end up working in industry, for example in solid state physics at Intel.</p>

<p>Even more removed are fields like neural science. Obviously there is the road of the university researcher, teaching and doing research.But such a person could also end up with other careers, they might, as a hypothetical, using your son’s interest, work on methods of using music to help hypothetically reverse alzheimers, or using music to stimulate the immune system, or could possibly come up with some sort of music program that stimulates higher reasoning skills (think of the "mozart effect’ CD’s, only done scientifically). He also could end up working for film studios helping researching effective theme music for movies as another hypothetical, or working for an advertising firm working out how sound influences the person watching an ad on video or tv…Heck, maybe that kind of research and training would be Daniel Letvin in reverse, where he goes from being a researcher to being an incredibly sought out sound engineer/producer:). </p>

<p>One thing with music that I keep being told, is that the possibilities and the paths have to be flexible and open because it is such a winding path. Yeah,studying neural science based in music does not have the direct rewards that let’s say accounting or engineering or IT have in terms of study-----profession, but like music as a whole you kind of have to hope that as you go along the path unfolds and the ‘it’ comes about:). And from what I understand, he would be moving into a relatively new and virgin field, so he may be at the forefront of a revolution, you never know:)</p>

<p>JustaMom5465, Northwestern University Bienen School of Music has a highly regarded Music Cognition program. </p>

<p>[Music</a> Theory and Cognition, Programs of Study, Bienen School of Music, Northwestern University](<a href=“http://www.music.northwestern.edu/programs/musictheorycognition.html]Music”>http://www.music.northwestern.edu/programs/musictheorycognition.html)</p>

<p>[Music</a> Cognition at Northwestern](<a href=“http://kodaly.music.northwestern.edu/]Music”>http://kodaly.music.northwestern.edu/)</p>

<p>Since you said you wanted a small college in the northeast that is not a tier 1 school, I realize NU probably would not be of interest, but it is worth reading the websites to learn more about this field. </p>

<p>If you are looking at small liberal arts colleges, you might find faculty working in music cognition within departments like psychology or cognitive sciences. </p>

<p>A couple of things you said worried me a little. That is what you said about your son’s work habits and his liking to study subjects “on his own terms.” There are many bright creative people like that who are successful in music and many other fields (being an entrepreneur in business, for example). But music cognition and cognitive science are scientific fields, requiring good work habits and the willingness at the undergraduate level at least, to work within an existing research program as an assistant to a professor. </p>

<p>I think some of the popular books on music cognition such as those by Oliver Sacks and Daniel Levitin (which I have enjoyed reading very much) tend to downplay the more dry scientific aspects of this area of study. Has your son enjoyed and done well in science courses in high school, science projects, etc.? </p>

<p>I would recommend he consider taking AP Psychology if he is looking into studying music cognition or cognitive sciences in college. How he likes that course and how he does in it might shed more light on how appealing he would find music cognition/cognitive science as a college major.</p>

<p>One more thing. If your son is going to be entering his junior year, there certainly is time to demonstrate an upward trajectory in his grades if not a huge increase in gpa. I am not even sure what a tier 1 school is, except in terms of those US News college rankings. Your son sounds like an interesting and talented person who has a lot to offer besides grades. Good luck in your college search.</p>

<p>This thread is calling out to me as it fits my son’s journey the past 24 months. </p>

<p>He sounds a bit like your son in some ways. To make a long story short & after much research, discussion, college visits, talking with professors in college music programs, my son has finally chosen to major in Music Therapy. </p>

<p>Now before you say that your son would never want to do that, MY son said the same thing when he was a HS soph. He said there was no way he would work with the sick, or with children. NO way. But after 12 months of all this pre-preparation & talking with more mature college musicians, he realized that his dream of being a cello performance major would probably be unrealistic. </p>

<p>Of course, I had to introduce the idea of M.T., and before long, more and more people (w/in the field of music) began expressing what a wonderfully fulfilling vocation it was. </p>

<p>He spent his summer between Jr. and Sr. year playing his cello at the local nursing home twice a week for 3 months. (yes, it was at my urging at 1st.) But he slowly began to notice the residents change each time he played. Even without any M.T. training yet, he witnessed the miraculous works of Music Therapy. No one could ever have told him that this would happen. He had to experience it himself.</p>

<p>But the other side of this story is after some research, he has decided he wants to focus on MT for those who have suffered brain trauma. This is where the neuromusic therapy training comes in. He has talked with his college adviser who has recommended he minor in psychology. </p>

<p>He is leaving in 6 days for his freshman year at Loyola New Orleans to major in Music Therapy. He absolutely cannot wait to get started in the field. He is thrilled to have chosen this direction. But it took him 2 years to find this path. All he’s ever wanted to do was something in music. </p>

<p>Toss it around with your son to see what he thinks.</p>

<p>I also agree with what the others have said about Oliver Sacks, his book “Musicophilia.” There was a Nova special recently, [NOVA</a> | Musical Minds | PBS](<a href=“http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/musicminds/]NOVA”>Musical Minds | NOVA | PBS) on music’s effects on the mind. Hopefully you can find it. It’s a nice introduction on the science of music. We dvr’d it and my son watched it. Totally loved it.</p>

<p>Good luck to your son. Let the adventure begin!</p>

<p>These are great posts and I certainly do appreciate all the advice. I will pass on to S.</p>

<p>Rudysmom, your S’s journey is interesting. My son has already watched the Musical Minds program (we have it on DVR also). There was also another similar but shorter program on Discovery or Science (or something).</p>

<p>Rigaudon, I don’t want to make him sound more stubborn than he is. The ‘on his own terms’ was really meant to refer to his music. Work habits, yes, they have been an issue - looking for something to ‘click’. I am hoping that the start of the college search will be the turning point. He has found his (honors level) science classes interesting and done pretty well in them. He tried to get into AP Psych for this year but couldn’t get into the class (full). </p>

<p>again, thanks. :)</p>

<p>JustaMom, I knew this <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/634233-music-cognition.html?highlight=music+cognition[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/634233-music-cognition.html?highlight=music+cognition&lt;/a&gt; was here, just took me a bit of time to find it.</p>

<p>The Ohio State link in the post I directed you to is dead. Here’s a live link <a href=“http://music.osu.edu/3_academics/areas/music_cognition.php[/url]”>http://music.osu.edu/3_academics/areas/music_cognition.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Yes, music cognition is definitely closer to the terminology you are looking for. “Musicology” is certainly a far far different field - it’s the academic study of the history of music, and involves researching why Edition A of this Beethoven sonata contains a Bb while Edition B contains a Bnat, or identying the composer of an unmarked manuscript by analyzing the handwriting and harmony, etc; as well as working with scientists to discover what really killed Mozart, etc etc etc etc. It’s a very large part of the graduate scene - lots of PhD and MA offerings of musicology throughout the nation - but very rarely offered (or taken) as an undergrad major.</p>

<p>While music cognition is an exciting field, only one university (Northwestern) offers a program in the cognitive study of music. There are some music cognition researchers (David Huron and Lawrence Zbikowski) with mostly, if not fully, musical educations. Nevertheless, if one were interested in the cognitive study of music, a major in neuroscience or cognitive science in general would be wiser, as one can further specify their research interests further along in his or her careers. However, all researchers in music most at one point or another come to understand reductive analysis, so a complete education would involve some music classes.</p>

<p>A note to stephmin, your description of musicology is rather anachronastic. Current musicology also involves a number of intersecting fields, including gender studies, sociology, history, music analysis, and history of theory. I can’t think of any current musicologists who are studying Mozart’s death…</p>

<p>Maybe musicologists aren’t…but some scientists definitely are:</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/18/health/18mozart.html[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/18/health/18mozart.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Theorygeek, who do you think first suggested the idea that Mozart was murdered by Salieri? A scientist? Or someone who actually knew who Salieri was?</p>

<p>Others probably know more about this, but from what I have read on the subject (once did a research paper on it many years ago, got ****ed off when a humanities teacher in HS passed Salieri murdering Mozart off as ‘fact’ because she had seen the play Amadeus…</p>

<p>From what I remember, when Mozart died some people who knew of the rivalry between himself and Salieri, half heartedly suggested Mozart might have been poisoned. Later on this was fanned by more rumors, where Salieri, who spent his later years suffering from dementia among other things, supposedly confessed to killing mozart and attempted suicide, as shown in Amadeus. Some physicians, reputedly including Mozarts own physician, reputedly also said the symptoms Mozart had when he died were symptomatic of poisoning (though written accounts of his own physician suggest he believed it was kidney failure)</p>

<p>There is also a story that Salieri, at Rossinis request, took him to see Beethoven (Beethoven studied with Salieri and considered him one of his primary teachers) and Beethoven supposedly yelled at Rossini “How dare you bring the murderer of Mozart here”…it is likely either the story was made up, or that Beethoven did so in jest, since Beethoven otherwise seemed to have not believed the tale, and it is unlikely that Beethoven would have dedicated music, as he did for Salieri, to mozart, a composer Beethoven respected. </p>

<p>Other rumors claimed that Costanze said Salieri killed Mozart, but that is belied by the fact that she had their son study with Salieri, doesn’t make any sense. And the people who knew both Salieri and Mozart all said that though Salieri was jealous of Mozart, was a rival, that his rivalry was limited to writing Italian operas to try and match mozarts, and that both of them both admired and were jealous of each other (in part because despite popular myth, Salieri in Mozart’s lifetime was more popular then Mozart and more importantly, had an easier time with the rich court patrons who commissioned pieces in getting them to do so). Though Salieri is a cypher compared to Mozart in most people’s minds, he was probably more respected then Mozart and also was a teacher of great renown to composers, so it is unlikely he would have been jealous enough to kill mozart, why would someone more popular then his rival kill him? </p>

<p>I suspect it is like any conspiracy theory, you have someone dying under weird circumstances (Mozart was still young), you have a known rivalry and people have this need to try and make it more then it is, much as with any conspiracy theory, they can’t believe in Mozart’s case that a genius like that died so young, and thus graps unto a juicy story. This is added to because in our own day Salieri is an afterthought in an entertaining play, while Mozart is known to most people as “a genius”, so it is easy to believe that Salieri was a hack who hated Mozart, because if Salieri was so great, how come he doesn’t have his picture on a chewing gum card? (Sorry, couldn’t resist that one…:)</p>

<p>I’m not trying to say Mozart’s death isn’t an interesting subject nor that it isn’t researched, but I have a feeling most musicologists spend more time pondering Mozart’s actual music rather than playing CSI. I think musicprnt is spot on… so to answer “who do you think first suggested the idea that Mozart was murdered by Salieri?” Probably Hollywood or some 18th century gossip newspaper.</p>

<p>Hey! There is a FANTASTIC looking program at University of Washington, that offers a lot of interesting study in music cognition. You will have to look though, it may be a masters but something to keep in mind.
If you do some google searching for “Music Cognition” you can find a handful of universities that will offer some course work in the field. I appear to have similar interests as your son, and I have found that instead of finding an institution that specifically offers my major (a specific study of music history) I am better off with schools that allow me to study independently in my given field. It’s given me a lot more power to choose my academic path and follow my specific interests - there just isn’t a lot of schools out there with my ‘exact’ major. Something to think about for your son if you aren’t liking your options much.
Good luck!</p>