My Chances

Colleges & Universities A-Z Brown University
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<p>As a Brown student, I'd first like to wish everyone the best of luck during these last few hours before decision time, and cheers to Deloren for having the guts to share your stats for everyone to comment on. Being at Brown is all about having the openness to discuss sensitive topics. And remember, most qualified students don't get in, so don't feel bad about a deferral or rejection, and speaking from my own experience, it often works out better come April not to have been accepted early.</p>

<p>As far as affirmative action, the best arguments I can think of come from a 300-page book called "The Shape of the River" by William Bowen and Derek Bok, the former presidents of Princeton and Harvard, respectively. It has empirical evidence which in my opinion settle the controversy fairly decisively.</p>

<p>First, about the 1500 vs. 1300 idea, it is true that slightly weaker stats are often accepted from URMs, but a comparison of 200 points is exaggerated. Also, the SAT becomes a worse predictor for higher scores, which means a 1350, for example, has a better chance of outperforming a 1450 in college than a 1200 has of outdoing a 1300. This means that allowing for some variability at the upper end of the spectrum, where it most frequently occurs, is understandable, and rjs makes a good point that this happens for several reasons, not just minority status.</p>

<p>Second, about the "everyone should have an equal chance" issue, in an ideal world, no one would even have to compete for spaces, and everyone would simply go to whatever school they wanted to. That said, there are several reasons why affirmative action isn't as unfair as it seems, even ignoring that legacies, athletes, and even musicians who happen to play both the oboe and viola might have similar statistical advantages to URMs depending on a school's "institutional priorities." Bowen and Bok liken it to a handicapped parking space: only one person can park there, but everyone who isn't handicapped will pass it thinking they were the one who was cheated out of a spot, which is extremely unlikely. Also, using several measures of post-collegiate success, such as community involvement, income levels, satisfaction with life, etc., they found statistical evidence that minorities accepted under affirmative action in the past have benefited more than their non-URM counterparts from having attended a prestigious institution, and this effect was starker when the schools were more selective (i.e. the marginal benefit is greater at Ivies than public universities). This, after all, is the entire point of accepting a small number of students who might barely miss acceptance without affirmative action, to provide a chance to those who will benefit most from attending, and in fact this is the goal of any admissions process. All in all, affirmative action has been very successful at achieving what it was designed to do, and the few students negatively impacted by it lose much less (they presumably still go to college, and probably attend only a slightly less prestigious school) than the accepted students gain, and as a kicker, campus diversity gets bolstered, which college students generally favor.</p>

<p>Conclusion: The case for URM advantages is much stronger than the case against it, and this is the conclusion reached by much more reputable sources than myself or (as far as I know) anyone here.</p>

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<p>amazing.</p>

<p>thank you :)</p>

<p>another reason to love Brown</p>

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<p>if anyone gets screwed it is the white women... Too many apply.. and God knows we aren't considered URM's. People keep saying that URMs have unfair opportunities. If you are a minority, and are different on the outside, does it prevent you from learning any differently than a white student? The color of your skin does not qualify as a learning disability.. We all have equal opportunities to succeed, so we should all have equal rewards...</p>

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<p>I love how a post by a concerned applicatn who HAPPENS to be black automatically turned into an argument about affirmative action. This happens quite often on these forums, and frankly, that's what sickens me (not any specific people on here or their opinions).</p>

<p>Most people so terribly against affirmative action is simply bitter that they come out on the disadvantaged side during the admissions process even though they have lived an advantaged life (not advantaged enough to get them legacy status, rich-people preference, etc, of course). And before you accuse me of benefitting from affirmative action, just noting that I am asian.</p>

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<p>It's going to continue happening as long as applicants continue to mention that they are black. Secondly, as you can see the academic and SAT scores of black students are a lot lower than those of white/asian applicants. I mean a black Brown applicant with of GPA of 3.25 and 27 ACT score is a qualified applicant, a white applicant with the same score would be laughed at.</p>

<p>As long as black students continue to underperform and apply to ivy leauge schools, the debate of affirmative action will continually rear it's head. That's the way the world goes.</p>

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<p>Yes, yet every other "chances" poster out there mentions their race, be it asian, white, hispanic, or native american. Hell, some whites even try to put native american on their applications when they are only 1/8, or 1/16. Please do not fault this applicant for including their race in their post.</p>

<p>The way the world goes, is that any time benefits are offered to one group of people, all others denied such a special advantage (even if they do not suffer any disadvantage by it) will complain out of jealousy. I have heard very few blacks complain about AA - though from my perspective, the practice seems condescending - and if for any reasons such a policy were to be reversed to benefit the whites, the same people so verbal against it now will simply smile and take it.</p>

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<p>If AA is meant to aid blacks due to their historical hardships, what does that say to poor whites? Poor whites have overcome the same adversity that a lot of blacks did, so how is that fair? I'm white, but my life was hellacious growing up, and I couldn't afford the same crap most of you could, yet I remained faithful to my intelligence, studied hard, have a 3.8 GPA, top 3% of my class, and 1470 SAT. I worked my way to this point.</p>

<p>Don't feed me the bs that AA is in any way fair.</p>

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<p>Since my post was hijacked I think it's only fair that Cornel West and myself comment on Affirmative Action and the condition of blacks in America.
It's funny that so many of you argue against affirmative action under the false assumption that everyone will be treated fairly and have the equal access and opportunity for success. When i travel around the country and go into the "ghettos" I don't see up to date schools, standard housing, or access to the basic necessities of life. Instead I see, drug dealers, substandard housing, police patrols every 10 minutes, schools with out of date textbooks, underqualified teachers, and a plethora of other elements that characterize urban and rural environments(w/o police patrols). You don't find libraries in the ghetto. You all stand on your soap boxes preaching about how unfair AA is and yet you fail to realize or chose to ignore the fact that minorities are paid less than the rest(stats can be found online). My vote goes to chose to ignore. You speak of the disadvantage of poor whites well a poor white man will make more than a poor black man so that argument is rather pointless. If you meant to say that because you are poor and white you need help paying for college or getting in you are quite simply wrong. You can get in because you bring a diverse element to campus life and you will get just as much money as I will from the government as I will. You all offer the same hackneyed arguments for why AA should be abolished but yet you offer no solution to fix the underlying problems within minority communities. Discussions about the plight of blacks tend to be of two camps the structuralist and behavioralists. The structuralist point to Jim Crowism, job and residential discrimination, skewed unemployment rates, inadequate health care, and poor education while the behavorist point to the waning Protestant ethic in the black community. However, neither group offers up viable permanent solutions. It's hard to keep someone energized and focused on school when they have no food to eat and siblings who are going without because of poverty. Affirmative Action exists as nothing more than stepping stone for disadvantage minorities and white women to get a leg up in the world.
Some of you have stated that white women have not been beneficiaries of AA and this just further illustrates your choice to ignore data and educate yourself. You question my ability and my intelligence because my gpa is not a 4.0 with 1400+ SATs well I question your ability to lead this country if you refuse to acknowledge the truth. Don't ask me for data and sources find them yourself. I urge you the read up on affirmative action and its effects before you make snap judgements based on onesided arguments.
If we lived in a perfect world where everyone one was equal and had access to the same technology, materials, etc. then I would laud the dismantling of AA practices but since with don't I will not. Regardless of whether or not I get into Brown I will have a successful life. I have no doubt about my ability to handle Brown's courseload.
I wanted to address all the arguments brought up but that didn't happen after all I am writing a research paper but I will address them in the future.
Please excuse spelling, missing commas, semi-colons, etc.
And as for the subway franchise argument and black retired executive at John Deere was denied the right to open a John Deere frachise which has no minority franchise owners. Do you have any data to back up your ascertion that minorities pay less for franchises? I am gonna say you don't but I will happily concede if I am wrong.</p>

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<p>But you fail to address that poor whites and poor asians are shat upon. So how does that make sense? Don't you think AA should be based moreso on socioeconomic class than on race? That way, poor blacks, poor whites, poor asians, poor hispanics etc. would see the benefit instead of just URMs, regardless of their status.</p>

<p>Tell me how it is fair that a rich black applicant would be judged less harshly (just because he's black, regardless of the opportunities he's been presented with) than a poor white who has had no grand opportunities? Isn't AA itself then a racist practice by assuming that all blacks must be in some way underprivileged?</p>

<p>BS. Pure BS.</p>

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<p>Two quick points
1. Minorities have very different experiences than non-minorities in this country. As Chris Rock once said "None of you would want to trade places with me and I'm RICH".
2. Applicants from difficult economic or societal backgrounds (yes, even whites) along the lines of having attended a rural and underfunded school or, along the lines of a very low parent income etc etc are sought out under the broad heading of 'diversity'. It isn't just skin color. Dartmouth for a fact I know has had special tags for disadvantaged poor white northern rural applicants as well they should. Whether it is systematic or not belies the point that <em>ALL</em> apps are read in the context of opportunities the applicant has had. Why else ask all those questions about parent education and things of that sort?</p>

<p>On a larger and more relevant note, I wanted to additionally chip in my best wishes to everyone on the tenderhooks. I was in the same exact position a year ago [glued to CC] on D-day. However, even if it doesn't work out tommorow, I can promise you that you have wonderful college experiences ahead of you. Fun is not an alum of any school :0)</p>

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<p>EDIT: On second thought, debating affirmative action is a fruitless endeavour. </p>

<p>I think CC obscures the world. A lot of URMS that post here have overwhelmingly lower stats than non-URMs. Maybe it's the contrast of nervous URMs with lower stats and overconfident non-URMs with high stats. I don't really know.</p>

<p>But, I bet that the URMs that are actually accepted are on-par with non-URMs. When, I look back on CC successes. Last year Jolt got into Dartmouth with a 35 in the ACTs and Candi got into Yale with high 1400s on the SATs.</p>

<p>I think we all have a narrow-minded view of AA. Colleges definitely are not digging at the bottom of the barrel to find minorities. At least, I hope not.</p>

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<p>I know you've got the application jitters, but that's no reason to take out your own insecurities on affirmative action. I'm not pro-AA, but I really don't like the way that some of you argue against it. Most of you don't attack the program, you attack its beneficiaries, and that's what really disgusts me. None of you seem to have statistics to fit your claims. I'm also irritated that Hispanics seem to get a free ride in all this; even though Mexicans and Puerto Ricans benefit to the same extent, in the same numbers as blacks do, you all seem to spew hatred directed a black beneficiaries of AA.</p>

<p>Whatever. You'll feel as you do regardless of what I say. I'll just mention this---I expected better of Brown applicants. You're supposed to be the "liberal" Ivy. davidrune has a point, too. Most of the URMs that actually get admitted to the Ivies don't have 1300/2.7 like some of you appear to believe. But hey, blaming AA's a great saftey blanket for when you get deferred/rejected, right? That way, you can blame somebody other than yourself.</p>

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<p>deloren986, you write " please excuse my spelling, grammar, etc." yet with your awful spelling and grammar you expect to get into Brown? IF YOU CANT DO IT, IF YOU CANT HANDLE THE WORKLOAD, THERE IS NO POINT IN GOING THERE. THIS REAFFIRMS MY POINT THAT MANY PEOPLE ARE ACCEPTED INTO THE TOP SCHOOLS WHO ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO DO SO.</p>

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<p>scherzo -</p>

<p>Well you seem to be missing a few apostrophes there yourself. Not to mention a few glaring grammatical errors in your capitalized ranting alone. Obviously everyone makes typos and careless errors. After reading deloren's post and your posts, I have found him/her to be much more articulate than you are.</p>

<p>Relax</p>

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<p>Are you also black?</p>

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<p>Does it matter?</p>

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<p>For all those opposed to affirmative action, please read "The Shape of the River," go to the site below, or at least read my post above, all of which address the issue of statistical evidence and the rationale colleges actually use for maintaining the policy (and the first two of which are more credible and probably more thoughtful on AA than anyone who has posted here, including myself).</p>

<p><a href="http://www.bu.edu/irsd/articles/shape.htm"&gt;http://www.bu.edu/irsd/articles/shape.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>