<p>One option that can be attractive that worked well for me & my sibblings & nieces who attended public Us is the honors program. It can really make a difference. The programs vary but are worth inquiring about--sometimes they have smaller classes with more individualized attention, preferences in registration, and other differences that can enrich the student's education. We all found it valuable.</p>
<p>Yes, I do realize that this is a forum for parents, but I think that the viewpoints from high school seniors are equally as important if not equally as appreciated. The point of this thread isn't to throw out a pitch and say "I can't afford to send my kid to college" only to hear "you're a wonderful parent; it's not your fault; you made the right choice by sending her to a state college or community college" or some other variation of those words over and over again from other parents. </p>
<p>I agree with the fact that a community college does not quite meet the rigors of university level courses. There is a transfer program from our community college to the state college here as well; one has the option of spending 2 years at the community college and another 2 in university to obtain a Bachelor's Degree from that university. However, I think that third year university would be extremely tough to those who were not adjusted to this kind of environment. I don't think that the study habits and time management techniques that were suitable for a community college would suffice at university. </p>
<p>Keep in mind that nowadays, a Bachelor's Degree is pretty much required for all jobs, which wasn't the case 20 years ago. Employers like to (believe that they) have well-educated, responsible workers, so they look for a piece of paper that says that you've gone through university for 4 years and pursued an education, that somehow through these years you've grown to be a thoughtful and contributing member of society. We all know that the little piece of paper proves little about your qualifications for the job, but like it or not, it's almost imperative to have a Bachelor's Degree. If employers want it, then you must have it. </p>
<p>I for one, would not recommend a community college. To me, it seems that your daughter has worked extremely hard despite less-than-favorable circumstances and would fair well in university. Community colleges are generally reserved for those who have, well, "screwed up" somewhere in their lives and have realized that the prospects of getting a good job are pretty low without some sort of post-secondary education. So now they have gone back to school to "make up" the time they lost and hopefully scrape a better job than the one they have now. I don't think your daughter fits into that category. She deserves to be in college.</p>
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applejack are you a parent? I never said I had to pay for my daughters education, I wish to contribute to it as much as I can so she can have a better start in life then I had. Thats what being a parent is all about. My parents did not give me a dime for college except for paying for my textbooks. Not one red cent. Mine was financed by loans and by myself and my husband. I know how rough it is for a young kid to graduate with massive debt and then they are faced with the possibilities of taking a job they may want but cant bc of their debt. I would love to work in a prosecutors office or do public interest law but I cannot afford to do that bc of my loans. I would rather help my daughter and have her take minimal loans so she can take the job that will be most fulfilling to her. When you are a parent its quite normal to want better for your kids than you had. I am no exception to that,
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<p>Wow. You're very defensive. You should be appreciative of people trying to help you, not aggressive.</p>
<p>In your OP, you told us you were going to have to tell your daughter that she will need to go to a lesser school than she wants because YOU can't afford it.</p>
<p>I told you how I went to the school I wanted to go to with parents unable to help me pay for it.</p>
<p>You need to decide whether your desire to help your daughter or her desire to go to the best school for herself is more important. If it's the former, then go to the cheapest school possible and feel good about yourself and hope that she uses it wisely to get into the law school of her choice. If it's the latter, then have her belly up to the bar and take a big drink of debt.</p>
<p>one comment about community colleges and entry into state colleges. Community college is a routine method of entry into the University of California system. Often these students do much better than those who start at a UC as a freshman. The community college students do very well in entry to post-grad education (professional and graduate schools). They also tend not to accumulate a series of poor grades in freshman and soph years that haunt them when trying to apply for post-grad education.</p>
<p>That said, this is just one route of many for students based on their education prep, financial ability and maturity. I make no comment on the appropriateness of this route for the OP's daughter. I just wished to make a point that community college does not prevent you from entering competitive state schools or subsequent competitive post-grad programs.</p>
<p>Im not sure why you think Im encouraging a community college. I dont think I ever said I told my daughter to go to one. My daughter has no interest in anything but a 4 year and that is fine with me. I was just pointing out people often bash them and some really are great learning environments.</p>
<p>As for you applejack I hardly was being defensive..I am happy you went to the school you wanted to without your parents paying for it..so did I...For my daughter to go to the school she wanted to without us paying for it that would be 120K + in loans at the end of 4 years...I am sure your parents would have encouraged you to make such a move...I think you should re-read my post and realize there was nothing defensive about it...</p>
<p>Wow! Probably 70 percent of the kids from my kids school go to community college, and maybe even more from the other schools around here. Largley for financial reasons, but the Califonia system is said to be a pretty good one. Most others go to a CSU or a UC. Privates aren't all that common.</p>
<p>Cross posted with ParAlum...</p>
<p>I think the OP has a much more realistic view of CC than many of us, as she has attended CC while many posting have not. I also disagree about the rigors of CC; many students attend CC & then transfer to 4-year Us & colleges & do just fine. Their degree is just as valuable as any other degree. Folks go to CCs for many different reasons. Many are there for specific programs, some to explore options, and more than you might realize because of economic choices. </p>
<p>All CCs & all 4-year colleges & Us are not created equal & I do not believe it is fair to unilaterally say that CCs are not as rigorous as Us or colleges.</p>
<p>The OP has laid out ALL the options on the table for her D, with the costs, benefits and consequences of each of the choices as far as OP is able to predict. As a parent, I think that's very valuable & similar to what we did in our household at several points in the college selection process. My kids have said it has been valuable in making choices that work for them as well.</p>
<p>I agree that many strong students in CA & elsewhere attend CCs with the expectation of transferring & getting their degrees from a UC or CSU or private school such as USC. They are welcomed at those 4-year schools & as was posted above, they do well at their CCs & at the schools they transfer to. </p>
<p>OP has been clear that she is allowing her D to understand the available options and make her own good choices.</p>
<p>HI mom I agree with you about the comm colleges...Some may suck but others are good...just like some state schools are great some not etc...I have attended a state related school, a community college and a private law school so I have seen all different variations..Honestly the CC was no joke as far as workload..I worked very hard there and it was a great program..I dont know if all programs in that school are as good but some CC's are great for certain specialties..A paralegal program at a CC doesnt just get ABA approval unless it meets a certain standard and most firms insist nowadays on graduates of aba programs..In retrospect I would not have chosen a different school for that degree. It was cost effective and at the same time, a great learning experience</p>
<p>PA Mom,
I'm so glad you had a positive experience. My friend is running the paralegal program at our CC & going an amazing job of it. She's also co-enrolled in the PhD program, to get a degree in educational curriculum technology (or similar field), which is using to create on-line programming for students who are working and still want to get paralegal training. I know that she & her faculty put a great deal of effort into the program to train quality paralegals.
I have been impressed by the commitment of many I've met in the CC system, as well as the range of offerings. Many people I've met recently have gotten their bachelor's degrees & then gone back to CCs to get training and a certificate so they can earn a meaningful living--like paralegals, respiratory therapists and others. It's interesting to see how many respiratory therapists & others have bachelor's (sometimes even master & PhD) degrees & returned to CCs to get additional training for a career they enjoy.</p>
<p>ParAlum, just to make it clear although yes as part of the AMCAS GPA, all coursework including community college courses count, medical schools WILL thorough question why you took science courses at a community college as they are notoriously known for being very easy for getting A's in as students try to avoid taking a hard course at their university. To say that this will be glanced over and that an "A" in Organic Chemistry from CC will be accepted at face value, unlike the same course at the university, is not true.</p>
<p>Actually, the OChem "A" at cc counts just fine. As you remember the MCAT is the great leveler and the transcript doesn't end at the end of the cc period. The med school applicant who continues to do well in science coursework at the transferred school validates their earlier grade.</p>
<p>There are only a VERY few top LAC and VERY top schools where a lower grade in these key courses is viewed as equivalent to an "A" garnered at most universities.</p>
<p>While state universities may readily accept community college courses for bachelor's degree seekers, private colleges/universities may not. Grad schools (whether they be law, medicine, graduate school, etc.) will delve into why an applicant took community college courses which may or may not hurt the applicant.</p>
<p>Our parents always encouraged us to do our best and none of us was "bitter" that we could not afford the most expensive Us when the time came for us to go to college, back in the day. We did our best in grades & ECs & honors program for ourselves, NOT for our parents. I like to think that for most kids and families, that is still the case. I believe it is the case for my kids.</p>
<p>Particularly, for my S, it really did make him more competitive for merit awards & also has helped him have a very solid base for college work. It was very rigorous coursework but he enjoyed it and admits he found it more interesting than the other sections some of his classmates took.</p>
<p>My kids were always told that we had limited assets to invest in undergrad education, but we would help them as much as we could. S always kept that in mind when he made his college list & primarily applied to schools known for good merit aid (the college counselor was helpful in IDing some known for good merit awards).</p>
<p>Some of his classmates with better stats than his who only applied to their dream Us without consideration of merit aid were very sad when the aid packages they received left a huge gap between the U cost & the family's available resources. Some chose to attend the dream Us and take out huge loans, with major consequences to the students and families involved while others hastily made alternate plans including in-state Us.</p>
<p>The kids & families who did not have a grounded and realistic understanding of the financial options for the schools they were considering were surprised and dismayed when they learned it only after the applications were in & the acceptances and award letters started arriving. Yes, if the children and families know and understand the implications and choose to incur large amounts of debt, that is certainly an option, but definitely not the only and not a "given." Everyone needs to be clear on what the debt will do to future choices and options, especially if the financial situation in the US & world worsens.</p>
<p>ParAlum, The MCAT is a one day exam. While it is a standardized exam, it is an exam on one day of your life. Grades in coursework on a transcript are much more reliable with respect to the strength of an applicant and thus if a student does Gen Chem, Gen Physics, Org Chem, and Bio at a CC, where the standards ARE lower, any "A"s in those courses, will be looked at in this light.</p>
<p>If a student does not take upper level courses (which then the student might as well get a B.S. degree if they did), then those CC grades are not validated, and it was a waste. But I digress.</p>
<p>While yes there may be some CC courses that are comparable to university courses, the truth of the matter is the interviewer which you are seeking a position from, will not think that at all.</p>
<p>Happy,
I'm not sure where you get your info, but many of the schools we've conferred with are quite fine with accepting transfer credit from CCs.<br>
USoCal (a very well-regarded private U) is fine with accepting CC credits from CA, HI & probably other schools; in fact they're accepting all of my D's. I honestly can't imagine that grad schools would frown on a student going to CC to save money, particularly in this challenging economic climate & wouldn't want my kid to attend a school that was that unreasonable anyway.</p>
<p>I would guess med school applicants I encounter are glad that I'm the interviewer and not yourself!
While your comments are well-intentioned, I think you overlook that cc education does not stop at the cc, but is just the stepping stone to a BA/BS. Sustained achievement or upward trajectory are important and relevant components of a successful application to med or grad school.</p>
<p>HImom, I'm not talking about credit. I'm talking about at interviews for grad school, in which the OP said that her daughter is interested in law. My point is that starting off the bat, with community college courses, is not the right footing to start on, esp. considering her daughter is not a cream of crop CC student: B+ average (no offense).</p>
<p>Inform her about the advantages of a state school in the context of a downward spiraling economic climate as well as how it benefits your family's economic situation. Tell her that her willingness to accept this reality would be one of the greatest educational/maturation experiences because the notion that paying for a private school vs. state school (honors programs are great for grad school entrance, you get the small community feel with the vast resources of a large research university+access to the top staff at the State school fyi) is going to "payoff" in both senses of the word is an evanescent reality as unemployment rates skyrocket. Tell her to ask this question: If their really has been a change in American ideology or if she wants to propagate this change (politically, culturally, fiscally, morally, etc.) is it responsible as a citizen so blessed as to even have a chance to go to college to compared to the rest of the world to ignore the negative repercussions it could financially have on you as parents who have supported and provided like you have? Ask her to take her ego out of this because at this point in American culture we must turn the "it's only about me" mentality into a small minority as opposed to the large majority. Think collectively as a citizen and factor in the political and global context we are in. Get educated girl! and realize that things have changed and that the glamorous Ivy like schools become a progressively glossier facade the more you think about it, but they still are a facade. Education depends so much more on your willingness to learn, accept, and discover the truth. Your decision at this point in time, about college, is your first test. What's it gonna be?</p>
<p>Yes, and unless the student is by nature highly motivated, hard working, determined, and wants to learn as much as she can, someone taking community college courses will be lulled into a false sense of security that community college course expectations are the same as four year university equivalent course. It is MUCH harder to do all your general education requirements in a CC and then jump into upper level coursework as a junior student, without having a lot of difficulty in adjustment. If instead a student starts as a freshman at the university at least the transition/adjustment period happens much earlier in lower level courses.</p>