<p>Not all students benefit from direct entry into a full 4 year program. Too many freshman in a four year program underachieve their intellectual potential due to maturity, time management and social issues confronting them. CC transfer students often avoid this problem. There can be a step up in work and performance expected, but these students generally have gained the maturity to successfully navigate this transition. The result: fewer unfortunate low grades in the entry, foundation courses and generally higher grades in the advanced courses taken at the transferred university or college!</p>
<p>Unless things have changed greatly since I went to law school, there are no interviews for law school, unlike med school & residency. I'm not sure what you're basing your info on, Happy. </p>
<p>Also, like ParAlum, most interviewers would be impressed by upward trajectory of sustained achievement, which is what most professions require for success anyway, otherwise they'll have to discount so many of the UC & CSU & other students many, many of whom will be coming from CCs.</p>
<p>Actually, Happy, in post #173, </p>
<p>"While state universities may readily accept community college courses for bachelor's degree seekers, private colleges/universities may not."</p>
<p>You specifically said that most private schools will may readily accept CC credits to transfer and I refuted your statement. I am curious as to what you are basing your information on?</p>
<p>ParAlum:</p>
<p>What better way to learn how to be mature and manage time in an efficient manner other than to be put in an environment that demands these qualities? Many colleges realize that the transition from high school to college is very difficult, so they give freshmen grades on a purely Pass/Fail basis. No such thing exists in the third year to accomodate community college transfers. </p>
<p>Community colleges expect less from the individual. The end result is that the work habits and self discipline gained from a community college are not enough for an individual to do well in university. Don't assume that maturity is gained through time. </p>
<p>Some may even argue that college itself did not prepare an individual for the rigor of Professional Schools, such as Medical School or Law School. If a community college is a step down from college, then I don't think any amount of maturity gained through a community college is going to overcome such an enormous gap.</p>
<p>"Too many freshman in a four year program underachieve their intellectual potential due to maturity, time management and social issues confronting them. CC transfer students often avoid this problem." --- In other words, CC courses are so much easier and dumbed down, so a student has more time to deal with those other issues other than the actual college work. And what will change in 2 years? Those same issues, will be present 2 years later.</p>
<p>Yes, HIMom, try getting a place like UPenn to accept community college credits.</p>
<p>Why not start kindergarten kids in second year calculus? or in place them in with high school students? </p>
<p>Premature entry into a situation can lead to permanent inability to gain the fundamentals.<br>
The actual results are that cc students often enter the 3rd year of college more motivated than those that started as freshman. This of course does not apply for all. Some students are ready and greatly benefit from the most rigorous and competitive environment from day one!</p>
<p>My original point is that their are many different routes to gain a valuable education (not just a degree) with lasting benefits. I did not wish one route that is advantageous to some students being disparaged as worthless or permanently disabling students from subsequent career options. In other words, one size doesn't fit all! Everyone must find the suit that fits them best!</p>
<p>Actually, since neither of my kids have any interest in transferrring to UPenn, we have never spoken with them or investigated their policies. Have you, Happy? We HAVE checked the policies of schools that were of interest & found that they are happy to accept transfer students AND transfer credits from CCs. Which schools have you checked?</p>
<p>ParAlum, using an extreme as kindergarten kids in 2nd year calculus or with high school students is quite laughable as it really doesn't fit. Let's compare apples with apples.</p>
<p>You can't actually believe that as a rule, the expectations and depth in a General Chemistry two-semester course at a local community college are just as rigorous as a General Chemistry two-semester course at a 4 year university.</p>
<p>Yes, there are MANY different routes to reach the same goal. That doesn't mean the education and knowledge gained from each route is the same. Yes, both may get the same piece of paper at the end, but it's the knowledge gained behind that paper that matters. It's like saying at the end of college, in the same major, the guy with the GPA of 3.98 and the guy who has a 3.24 reached the same goal. There's a reason why even with medical schools, certain university GPAs are multiplied by a factor and others are not. Certain universities are KNOWN to be extremely rigorous and others are known to be very easy.</p>
<p>While CC students that enter the 3rd year of college may be more motivated (as now allegedly they have their extraneous issues resolved), it's their knowledge base (or lack thereof) that will put them at a great disadvantage, as they are so used to their classes being ridiculously easy, when they step into junior level classes with other students. It's the same reason why medical schools rarely accept AP credit for science courses and want to see a grade even with a score of 5 on the exam. Very few experiences replicate a demanding science course, which a CC course and an AP test on a one day exam don't.</p>
<p>It's like a student who takes regular 9th and 10th grade English and then suddenly steps into AP English in 11th grade.</p>
<p>Once again HIMom, every private school is different, I am talking about AS A GENERAL RULE. There will always be exceptions, and I'm not talking about the schools your kids are applying to specifically.</p>
<p>As someone before posted before, there is non-conformity in every state regarding transfer of community colleges to local colleges. It's not a tried and true rule. And his statement where he said, "You get what you pay for" is correct.</p>
<p>The whole community college thing really depends specifically on what schools and what parts of the country we're taking about. Otherwise you're comparing apples to oranges. </p>
<p>In some areas, this is a very established path whereas in other areas it's more looked down upon. So long as one does their research before hand and verifies that everything will work out then there's no reason why this path needs to be a problem. </p>
<p>As for graduate / professional schools, if one transfers to a full-fledged college or university and puts in a solid junior year then where one went to school for the first two years becomes of relatively little importance.</p>
<p>Back to the OP, she has stated that while a CC is an option, her daughter would like to attend a four year college starting in freshman year.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Yes, HIMom, try getting a place like UPenn to accept community college credits.
[/quote]
</p>
<ol>
<li>All CCs are not created equally. There are some programs at the CC level that are very competitive as far as gaining admission.</li>
</ol>
<p>I know a couple of students who started in CC and are now attending Penn. In addition, I have quite a had few students get into a program at Columbia including the grad program at SIPA that starts at the CC level.Students receive their associates at the CC, transfer to Columbia where they receive a BA or BA, then attend SIPA to earn a Master of International Affairs (MIA) or Master of Public Administration (MPA) degree.</p>
<p>In addition, there are a number of articulation agreements in NYC/NYS including NYU, Columbia and Cornell that have articulation agreeements with CCs.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Allmusic...We visited a state school yesterday. The tuition is 6K per year.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The OP said that her state school is 6k. CC in our area runs close to 5k, but perhaps the cc in her community is less expensive. I guess one would need to weigh the pros and cons for each individual, but I would probably send my child to the state school for 6k, rather than paying 5k for the cc.</p>
<p>momfromPA:
I'm also originally from PA and to get back to your original issues, I think you and your husband did a great job of laying out the financials. I am a Temple grad and lived both on and off campus. I think anyone willing can get a great education at Temple and also agree she should apply to Pitt. My niece is attending there and got a great merit scholarship, and Temple also has some merit based scholarships. </p>
<p>I tend to agree with your husband about not pursuing an apt as a freshman. Also keep in mind that even with roommates, there are leases that can run a full year, necessitating summer sublets, roommates who move out leaving the one who stays responsible, and security deposits that can be lost with negligent roommates. Perhaps a compromise could be one year in the dorms to try it out, demonstrate responsibility with grades and part time work, meet some like minded potential roommates and also investigate all the housing options. I know Temple has expanded their options since I was an undergrad! If she keeps her grades up, works part time to save some money and knows all the housing options are not her cup of tea, perhaps an off campus apt by sophomore year. </p>
<p>If she wants to pursue an apt after trying the dorms, she should develop a budget including transportation, utilities, food. Know whether summer sublets are permissable, etc and present her findings to her parents. She wouldn't need her car in either Philly or Pittsburgh, so she could save a lot on gas during the school year. Personally I got my own apt as a sophomore and presented it a fait accompli, they agreed it was a $$ saver, but then my roommate decided during the summer to transfer, and I had to quickly find other roommates, which worked out fine.
Good luck! We have a junior daughter and we are also struggling with how to weigh financial considerations in this economic climate and we have far fewer public options.</p>
<p>"Community colleges expect less from the individual. The end result is that the work habits and self discipline gained from a community college are not enough for an individual to do well in university. Don't assume that maturity is gained through time. "</p>
<p>I know plenty of people who started in community college and either acquired or kept the work habits and self discipline that allowed them to do very well in universities. Some went on to law school, graduated, passed the bar and are now practicing. Others graduated from college and entered other careers. This includes one who became a bank vice president, another who graduated summa from her 4-year college, and went on to a successful career that included a year-long fellowship to Harvard followed by an offer from Harvard to teach a course there.</p>
<p>I also know plenty of people who went to four year colleges and dropped out or flunked out due to lack of motivation or weak work habits.</p>
<p>It's not the type of college that decides what a student will do with their college experience and life. It's the student's own character that is the deciding factor.</p>
<p>Saying this, incidentally, as a Harvard grad who has taught at 4-year public universities and for fun has taken courses at my local community college.</p>
<p>MomfromPa,
I also agree with your H about the apartment. If your D wants to try dorm life and you can afford, it, that would be a safer way for her to become independent, and it also would make it easier for her to make friends than would exist if she were in an apartment. The dorm activities as well as the oversight by RAs can be of great help, particularly to freshmen.</p>
<p>My two cents from a Parent and Pa resident - </p>
<p>MomfromPA - You are on the right track. Temple is a terrific school and really had made some great infrastructure changes in the past few years. My suggestion is not to shy away from it at all - esp if she wants Law School.
Pitt is also a great school and she may have a shot there.<br>
Friends of my kids have attended both school and thrived and done well. These are kids that seem similar to your daughter.</p>
<p>Kutztown, Bloomsburg, Millersville and West Chester all are good state school. Kutztown is a really nice college town as is Bloomsburg.
Indiana U of PA is also a good school but sort of "out there" geographically.</p>
<p>I don't know which private schools your daughter applied to but many smaller privates offer very good merit packages even for B+ students like your daughter.
Lycoming and York are two I can think of off the top of my head.</p>
<p>If you can afford $15,000/year for your daughter's education you are doing better than most families.</p>
<p>Another point regarding housing is that I don't think our state schools allow freshman to live off campus unless they are living with family. Cars are also not allowed except in special circumstances by freshman at the colleges I visited. Here is the FAQ page from M'ville - Housing</a> and Residential Programs It looks like there is a limited number of singles available. I think not having a car on campus may be hard at first but forcing the kids to stay on campus on weekends gets them more involved in campus activities and their fellow students. </p>
<p>A friend of my kids graduated this past Spring from Millersville and had a wonderful experience including a semester study abroad in London. It seems to me that study abroads are much more common now then they ever were before. Most of the college students that I know have done or will be doing a study abroad while in college and that was/is not dependent on their college being a private or a state school. </p>
<p>The majority of freshman have probably never shared a room so it's a new experience for all of them and somehow it works out.</p>
<p>Even when there are difficulties with roommates, students learn important lessons about things like boundaries and assertiveness that will hold them in good stead for the rest of their lives.</p>
<p>if she wants to go to law school then she should go to an undergrad that would havethe potential getting her into top law schools. The return on it would be much better than going to a no name school. My sister and her husband got their degrees from Stanford law. Their starting salaries were 3 to 4 times of people graduated from our state school. My sister's degree has paid many times over. She has taken time off to raise her family. Every time she started to look for a job, her Stanford degree always came in handy. Good education appreciates, and it is an investment. I would rather give my kids good education rather than leaving them an inheritance.</p>
<p>In giving advice to the OP, it would be helpful to know her D's stats, which the OP posted elsewhere, and the types of colleges that the D is considering. Her D is an average college-bound student considering second/third tier types of colleges.</p>
<p>" She is an average student and has taken several honors classes (5 or 6) and one AP and one dual college credit course throughout HS. Her cum GPA is an 89/100 ( is that a 3.3 ?? not sure) Anyway her SATS are mediocre she got 520's in all 3 sections."</p>
<p>The colleges that she's considering are places like Temple, U of Hartford, Millersville U, Kutztown U, Shippensberg U.</p>