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And it’s not just for PhDs. I’m pretty sure it’s easier to get to Google from a top comp sci program than Podunk U. (And possibly easier from a top comp sci program than Harvard, though Harvard does send a handful kids off to Google caliber institutions.)</p>
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That’s true. That’s why it can be such a huge advantage to graduate from a large state U., especially when applying for jobs within the same state. In addition to that warm fuzzy feeling that we UC grads when the resume of a fellow UC grad crosses our desk, do you have any idea of how many of us there are?</p>
<p>Would all UC grads feel the same about each other? Berkeley vs UCLA?</p>
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<p>I think this relates back to the poster who asked how one knows about top fields for graduating seniors. It takes some knowledge and research. I think you could ask the undergraduate institution where their graduates go for jobs or graduate school or professional school.</p>
<p>Of course, not that many high school seniors really know what they want to be when they grow up.</p>
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<p>mathmom: I liked your extra-credit story yesterday and it made me think of one of my own. I am fortunate to have been entertained for so many years by my children who approach learning in very different ways. Many many many years ago at dinner Kid A asked Kid B: “How did you do on that math test today?” Kid B, deadpan: “100%” Kid A, in surprise and with some interest, “What about the extra credit?” Kid B looking at his plate: “I don’t care about the extra credit” Kid A, becoming very agitated: “Did you even DO the extra credit?” Kid B: silence. head down. shovels food.</p>
<p>last year Kid B took math</p>
<p>“MiamiDAP,
your child is not the only student to go to UMO and may not be representative of the average student there”</p>
<p>-No pre-meds are average students. Average students simply do not get accepted to Med. Schools. Many pre-meds from my D’s UG class are in great Med. Schools currently, including 3 in my D’s Med. School class. As far as I know my D. is representing pre-meds from her UG, but you are correct that none of any pre-meds from ANY UG in the USA represent the average students at their respective UG’s. You have to have college GPA=3.6+ to get accepted to Med. School from any UG, including Ivy’s, better yet closer to 4.0. I do not call it average, but that is as far as I know. Others might call it average.</p>
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I think the poster means average as in “typical” - not as in possessing academic credentials at the exact algebraic mean of the nation’s undergraduates.</p>
<p>She/He’s trying to say “A top HS grad such as your daughter is not the “typical” student at UMO.” I have no idea if that’s true, but I think that’s what the poster meant to imply.</p>
<p>bovertine is correct. I also don’t think USC and Miami Ohio are even in the same ballpark. USC is a highly regarded private university with great athletics, too (even if I do hate the current football coach…). There ARE students who are pre-med who might not be the strongest students. They generally get weeded out. There are students who struggle a lot in medical school. Medical school is HARD. In my view, it would be impossible! :)</p>
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<p>As someone on “the inside” of the medical profession, I can state pretty confidently that finding a doctor based merely on where they went to school may not be a very good method.</p>
<p>"And it’s not just for PhDs. I’m pretty sure it’s easier to get to Google from a top comp sci program than Podunk U. (And possibly easier from a top comp sci program than Harvard, though Harvard does send a handful kids off to Google caliber institutions.) "</p>
<p>Mathmom - Zuckerberg personally hosted a recruitment event at Harvard in November.</p>
<p>^Oh I know that. And there are definitely plenty of people in Silicon Valley with Harvard connections who probably drive some of that recruiting (some from my years at Harvard), but it’s a much, much smaller program there than other places. (Twenty professors instead of 200.)</p>
<p>I’m sure it’s not the best way to choose a specific doctor, but based on our experience she ended up being absolutely top notch. Here is something that never has ever happened in any medical visit I’ve had before or since. She was waiting for us in the exam room, with an assistant and they had all the files and test results and the assistant had the laptop and did everything from pull up the tests, with lab reports, going back her entire life basically, and she sat there scheduling everything while we were all together in the exam room. Hands down the best service I’ve ever had in the medical field. </p>
<p>I’m sure the school didn’t cause her to be so good, but I bet she’s always been smart, focused and all the ball I’m not surprised she went to top notch schools. </p>
<p>I know it’s not always that way, it happened to work out this time.</p>
<p>Thanks for the reference (some posts back), alh! </p>
<p>The reason that I keep harping ad nauseam on the point that a truly superb student–in all ways–may wind up without top admissions is this: I believe that it can happen (perhaps to 5% of the truly superb students), and that both students and parents should be prepared for this possibility. I can’t speak to the existence or non-existence of “robotic grade-grubbers.” I personally have not encountered one–however, I have not encountered Rigelian slime crawlers, either, and I suspect that they do exist. Seriously, I am willing to agree that some of the top stats students who are not admitted to top schools should not have been admitted to those schools.</p>
<p>Yet, if a student or parent reading the board thinks: “Well, the top stats kids who are rejected are the robotic type, which I clearly am not, so my odds should be excellent,” then the student has been given a false sense of security. This may lead the student to wonder about the level of support shown by teachers and/or GC’s when in fact, the letters of recommendation were also excellent, and the essays were (at least) fine.</p>
<p>In the experience of QMP’s friends, what I’d call “bad bounces” can just happen, to superb applicants. I do not think that it’s simply because admissions is so highly competitive that all of the well-qualified applicants cannot be admitted (although this is true). I think that the admissions committees sometimes deliberately pass over an applicant who is truly stronger. And on rare occasions, all of the committees happen to bypass the same person.</p>
<p>I find that with doctors, it doesn’t matter at all what school they went to - unless they are recent grads, and you really want someone with more experience than that! I rejected my first neurologist, a Harvard grad, after he made an absolutely moronic comment about nutrition, and I can’t tell you where my second neurologist went to school (somewhere in India?) but he’s great!</p>
<p>My D saw an orthopedist who didn’t even prominently post his diplomas on the wall. Instead, they were photos of him in various triathlete contests, and photos from his time in the military. He’s great too.</p>
<p>If you want to find the best doctors, ask the nurses and forget the diplomas.</p>
<p>A couple of additional thoughts:</p>
<p>Some have questioned why top students need to go to “top schools” for undergraduate work, when they can get into a top-flight school for graduate work. </p>
<p>On the one hand, it does often happen that a strong student at a large, public research university can gain admission to a top-notch graduate program. </p>
<p>On the other hand, in my opinion, there are several reasons for the “truly superb” students I have mentioned to go to “top schools” in their intended fields, if possible (and I also think that the schools should admit them). </p>
<p>First, a student in at least some of the sciences needs to go to grad school with a specific mentor in mind, often agreed-upon even prior to enrollment. Schools that enforce a waiting period after graduate registration, before a student can sign up with a research adviser, still often have some sort of under-the-table pre-agreements set up between some students and some advisers. If you take a school like UC Berkeley, the experiences of a grad student can vary substantially from adviser to adviser. A student who wants to work with a Nobel laureate is advantaged by having recommendations from faculty members whom the Nobelist knows. This may be easier for a student coming from Harvard than for one coming from some of the public universities. On the MIT forum, molliebatmit has mentioned that she believes that she was helped in getting into Harvard and working with the research mentor of her choice, by the recommendation based on her undergrad research experience at MIT.</p>
<p>Second, the research experience that one can gain as an undergrad differs from university to university. Scientists identify “problem selection” as a key issue differentiating the most significant work from other, equally difficult work that does not advance the field as much. Students who have the advantage of working as undergrads with truly top people will gain insight into good problem selection–I see this playing out all the time. </p>
<p>Third, in my experience, there are a few people in mathematics and the physical sciences who have an elegance of thought and depth of insight that is just extremely rare–here, I am talking about a small subset of people–perhaps 20% of the faculty at the “top” schools would fit into this category. On very rare occasions, one encounters a student of this type, and this student is not well-served by most non-top-schools.</p>
<p>When it comes to the UC system, UC Berkeley is definitely a top school in my field, regardless of the CC classification. So I don’t regard the experiences of someone who was an undergrad at UCB as a counter-example to my analysis.</p>
<p>Also, I don’t regard the experiences of pre-med students as a counter-example. Medical school admissions committees place a heavy emphasis on grades, given that the required courses have been taken. They do not conspicuously reward the choice of the most challenging courses, including graduate-level courses, as far as I can tell. However, in the physical sciences and mathematics, the people making the grad-school admissions decisions–within my range of experience–do look quite carefully at course difficulty as well as GPA.</p>
<p>(Edit: Wanted to acknowledge the possibility that MiamiDAP’s D took the most challenging courses available in the pre-med curriculum. The comments about pre-med programs were not meant to contradict MiamiDAP, just to say that pre-med programs are a different ball game.)</p>
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<p>As I was reading the first part of your post, I was thinking, “she was that way because that’s who she is, it has nothing to do with where she went to school.” Then you said it yourself.</p>
<p>My daughters go to a practice which is designed for preteen girls through early adulthood, and they run their practice in the same way you described above. It’s very holistic and girl centered, and is the best thing that ever happened to them in terms of their health (both physical and mental). This practice has in-house nutritionists and psychologists who specialize in eating disorders and other problems unique to girls, has mother-daughter massage and yoga classes, offers babysitting and CPR classes for girls, self defense classes, guest speakers who address current “girl issues,” etc. One of my Ds was having trouble with the whole tampon thing, and her MD gave her a “private lesson” using a model of female anatomy, and had her in good shape by the time she left her appointment. That would NEVER have happened with her previous pediatrician, who is a fantastic clinician. Every appointment is so thorough that you really have to budget a fair amount of time for them, which is in contrast to most practices I have been exposed to.</p>
<p>I have no idea where these doctors went to school, but I’m now curious.</p>
<p>Nrdsb4-
That practice for pre-teens and young women sounds like a dream come true!
How did you find it? Can you reveal where you live? I am so jealous- this is really what we need in our family.</p>
<p>Eyemamom, I had a similar experience except that I was trying to select a specialist for my DD from across the country. I did consider schools, but mostly medical and then her fellowship and residency, etc. So happened this doctor went to the same college as DD for undergrad which gave them a nice connection and allowed her to understand what other factors went on in DD’s life. She was an amazing doctor who came to the waiting room herself to greet patients. I think everyone in that practice did that which felt very human and nice.</p>
<p>I’ve been gone all day but wanted to answer alh’s questrions:</p>
<p>“But I wonder if USC has a top dept in your son’s area of interest?” </p>
<p>Yes, which is headed by a CalTech grad who prior to coming to USC was dept chair of his area at MIT.</p>
<p>"Were his professors there instrumental in his acceptance to graduate school? "</p>
<p>Yes, the above professor especially. When he speaks, other scientist in his field listen. </p>
<p>“Did he do research at USC?”</p>
<p>“Yes during all 4 summers” </p>
<p>“Maybe had an REU?”</p>
<p>NO but USC sponsored $5000 for each of 3 years of research.</p>
<p>“Author of a paper?” </p>
<p>Yes, first author for 5 yrs research done with a different Sr scientist in his field whom he met while he was in HS. It was published during his Sr year.</p>
<p>"Do you find your son’s path typical? </p>
<p>dont know really bur there were other exceptional students there in the engineering and science areas. </p>
<p>“Does it compare with that of other students who were in his PhD program?”
Yes as well as other top students at USC-
His best friend and house mate[ 7 guys lived in the “Physics house”] won a Churchill fellowship and is currently at Oxford, another housemate is now at MIT for his Phd in EE. </p>
<p>USC has more NMF’s than any other U except Harvard and Chicago. There are a LOT [over 1000] of really smart kids there these days.</p>
<p>“She/He’s trying to say “A top HS grad such as your daughter is not the “typical” student at UMO.” I have no idea if that’s true, but I think that’s what the poster meant to imply.”
Yes that is exactly what I meant, sorry to not be clear.</p>
<p>“In some fields, the recommendation of a certain caliber of professor may be necessary for a top PhD program. Those professors may not be found everywhere – though the overall rank of the school is not a good predictor of where they are”
Exactly correct. That is one of the many reasons DS chose to go to USC, in hopes of being be able to work with that research scientist/ professor. The other reasons were related to $$ , not wanting to be 3000 miles from home, having some HS friends there or at UCLA, and the opportunity to continue with his music studies, if he had the time[ that didint work out as well, since the music classes all seem to coincide with afternoon labs]</p>
<p>"“parents here are being advised the undergraduate institution doesn’t matter”</p>
<p>That depends on the field. In some fields, the recommendation of a certain caliber of professor may be necessary for a top PhD program. Those professors may not be found everywhere – though the overall rank of the school is not a good predictor of where they are. A lot of state flagships have well-connected professors in many fields.</p>
<p>This is the kind of thing that’s utterly specific to the program. It doesn’t just differ between aerospace engineering and French literature; it might differ just as much between linguistic anthropology and cultural anthropology."</p>
<p>The interesting thing in my d’s Ph.D. program at Princeton. As previously noted, they haven’t accepted a single student from any of the Ivy schools in five years, despite having scores of applicants. And the faculty know ALL the faculty at the other Ivy schools (and many of the graduate students know each other, too, as they share colloquia, both formal and informal partnerships between the schools). So all the undergraduate applicants from the Ivy schools would, at least in theory, have faculty-to-faculty connections. (Whether the faculty like each other is another issue entirely!)</p>
<p>So now I’m wondering whether the Ivy students got accepted elsewhere (and, hence, whether they were particularly well-served by “top” schools. My suspicion is not: the faculty did not know them very well, and it showed when it came graduate applications time.) I do quickly see that the faculty at Ivy schools in my d’s subfield hold undergraduates degrees from Vassar, Brandeis, Univ. of Berlin, and, yes, one from Yale.</p>
<p>“Third, in my experience, there are a few people in mathematics and the physical sciences who have an elegance of thought and depth of insight that is just extremely rare–here, I am talking about a small subset of people–perhaps 20% of the faculty at the “top” schools would fit into this category. On very rare occasions, one encounters a student of this type, and this student is not well-served by most non-top-schools.”</p>
<p>DS’s Fellow Discovery scholar at USC is one such truly exceptional student. He was awarded at Churchill fellowship [ only 14 are awarded a year- it is harder to receive than a Rhodes scholarship] and is currently at Oxford, studying Computational Neuroscience for 1 year before he continues his Phd studies at at Princeton. He is hands down the most brilliant young person I have ever met. He started at USC not knowing exactly what area he wanted to focus on, but when he made the final decision to do a double major in Math and Physics, USC pulled out all the stops to let this kid work in any area of science he was interested in- when he wasn’t doing neuroscience research he was doing quantum physics research -both at USC and at 4 elite summer research programs over 4 years.</p>