<p>I think that education matters but costs, including opportunity costs, need to be factored in. I got my degrees in my 30s after working for ten years and the I consider the education valuable but the experiences that I had in working and starting a business were valuable too. With our kids - I would have been happy whether or not they had college degrees or some college. I would have expected them to get degrees eventually but I have no problems with a non-traditional route - especially as that’s the route that I took. And I know many other successful people that have taken similar routes or that don’t have college degrees at all. Of course those people expected their kids to go to college and provided the funding for it. It is a knee-jerk kind of thing among the educated - to go to college; but now many are starting to question the costs of the traditional route.</p>
<p>I have a complete agreement with questioning the traditional route in anything, though I don’t think graduate school has become the “traditional route,” quite yet. And, yes, I am opposed to sinking debt into education when their are ways to get through school without it. I am in favor of kids working in college, and both my kids have well paying career type jobs, even though we are paying for their education.</p>
<p>The combination of learning to think well and speak well is valuable, in and of itself. And combining that with work is invaluable, careerwise, and developmentally, as well. </p>
<p>JMO</p>
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<p>The employment statistics you quote dont mean much since they include 5 of these people who has masters degrees and have low paying (presumably) jobs outside their field. So they go into the employed demographic even though they are drowning in debt for a field they cant get into. We are calling that a Win?</p>
<p>Whats the percentage for recent grads employed in the field they paid to get into? Its not 96.1%.</p>
<p>Argbargy, college isn’t just job training. I didn’t major in economics to become an economist.</p>
<p>x-posted with pizzagirl</p>
<p>Argbargy, I think a part of the problem with this argument you are making is that those people might not be doing any better without the degree, anyway. There is a group of people who do well in school but are spectacularly unsuccessful at “life.” It doesn’t matter what their degree says.</p>
<p>These people have always existed. This is not new.</p>
<p>But the educated class consistently educates their children. There is a reason for this. And it is not because they think it does not matter.</p>
<p>I would hate to be one of Beliavsky 's kids and only be of average intelligence. You’d get the message from dad that you weren’t really worth investing in and he didn’t believe in you.</p>
<p>Taking on big debt for a master’s may not be worth it, but conversely I’d never suggest a student go get an MBA immediately after the BA/BS. The value of the MBA is having the perspective of several years work under your belt and the benefit is that many companies will contribute toward the cost of the MBA is beneficial to your career trajectory with the company. </p>
<p>And yes, I think people need to have a realistic understanding of the impact of whatever degree they are pursuing. Education does not equal job training. Education is value add to on the job learning.</p>
<p>Having a masters today is equivalent to having a bachelors 20 years ago. It is the new normal.</p>
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<p>If one of my kids could not score above 1500 out of 2400 on the SAT, which is about average, I would have real doubts about his pursuing a BA. There are other paths. I could help him in other ways, for example with the down payment on a house when he is older.</p>
<p>MAs can be useful, but no one doubts that there are a ton of useless MA programs out there. Often as cash cows for the universities that sponsor them. I think getting a terminal master’s is best done either (a) simultaneously with a bachelor’s degree, (b) as part of an employer-paid continuing ed deal, or (c) after you have been out in the world for a while, and know exactly what you want to do next, and exactly what credentials you need to do it, and that’s the credential you are going for.</p>
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<p>What if they had straight A’s and didn’t score that high on the SAT?</p>
<p>You put too much faith in that test, beliavsky. You don’t bug me the way you bug some posters, and I think you make good points, from time to time, but you really believe in that test more than anyone in higher education or even the college board does. :p</p>
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<p>Well they wouldnt have wasted two years and have debt collectors constantly calling them to for payments on the $100K they owe. </p>
<p>Thats sounds like they’d be doing a whole lot better. </p>
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<p>Media needs to stop selling it as such. If we never had another article or chirpy newsreader claiming that getting “your degree” will mean an extra million in earnings that would be a good thing.</p>
<p>Walter White was underemployed…</p>
<p>We can always find one or two or 5 or 10 examples that back up our thoughts or fears. The trick is to find legit, well-considered pieces that inform with breadth and depth. The common media needs articles that grab folks- and they need them by each day’s deadline. Don’t assume they have your “critical thinking” interests in mind. </p>
<p>As for an MBA, it’s not hard to figure out that the most rigorous programs, at schools known for what they turn out, surpass just sitting through the classes, accumulating credit, and getting “any old” degree.</p>
<p>And lookingforward- doesn’t the first guy in this article make that point for you? An MBA from any old school getting aggravated that the good jobs are going to the people from HBS? This is news? Yawn.</p>
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Best statement I have read. Not all degrees/schools are created equal either.</p>
<p>I will say that if Bel’s post keep one family from forking out money they can’t afford to end a kid who is NOT college ready material then Bel has done the job. There’s too many parents of students who really aren’t ready for college pushing to get their kids into a college immediately after high school. That said, I agree, Bel puts way too much emphasis on standardized tests which do not do a good enough predictor of college success. They may very well predict if a student is prepared for the rigor of college, but they can not predict college success whether it’s in a straight 4-6 years or if it’s a student who goes in as an older student.</p>
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<p>Hmmm, doesn’t research indicate that the predictive value of high school credentials is something like:</p>
<p>AP tests* > HS grades > SAT subject tests > SAT reasoning test</p>
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<li>Tests, not courses. Of course, students at schools which do not offer enough advanced courses to prepare for AP tests may not be able to offer any data (good or bad) of this sort.</li>
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<p>All I can say is I am very thankful D1 is in a fully funded Ph.D program. She will graduate with zero debt for all of her post high school education, and she is well aware how very very fortunate she is.</p>
<p>UCB, I wasn’t thinking of the AP branded testing, but I’d agree with your plot - that AP tests scores (which is really rigor) and HS grades are stronger than SAT subject tests and SAT reasoning tests in terms of preparedness, but preparedness academically alone I don’t think is a strong predictor of college success. Think of all the years of posts from people who start out with My D/S was a 4.blah blah with a 2200 SAT and he/she just flunked out of freshman year…while those are anecdotal until there is actual data that shows WHO based on their credentials coming in and WHY they left a college I think it’s a stretch. i just heard a sad story this week of a friend of my son’s whose parents just pulled him out of college (in junior year) because they simply can’t afford it anymore. Smart kid. Lower middle class family. Hope he figures out how to get back and finish. He’ll be one of those statistics of kids that probably don’t finish in 4-6 years. </p>
<p>So I would say if you can afford to prop your average kid heading off to college up then he/she probably has a stronger shot at finishing than even a “smart” kid whose parents are financially strapped. But none of that is really captured in all the data Bel is posting. </p>
<p>We do know that SAT scores correlate strongly to family economic status but then I would ask, does the student with lowerGPA and SAT scores from an financially strong family graduate at the same rate as the higher GPA, higher SAT scores from financially strong families.</p>