<p>20/20 tonight interesting segment on the Bachelors degree being the "new" high school diploma.
At a recent middle school meeting, the principal of the high school,boasting 96% of the graduates attend college, my neighbor who is a professor at a CUNY quipped, "Only about 60 % belong there"</p>
<p>"If you're in the bottom 40 percent of your high school class -- and today, colleges are recruiting lots of those kids -- you have a very small chance of graduating, even if you are given 8½ years," career expert Nemko said.</p>
<p>"And the immoral thing about it is that the colleges do not disclose that."</p>
<p>Kinda arrogant that fellow from CUNY. Read some of the reports on CUNY from the mayor's office. Many of their students come from low performing NYC High Schools (not the selective ones).</p>
<p>I mention the professors comment because of the bottom 40% comment, he says most of them can not do the work so I suppose his cynicism is misplaced, yet perhaps true. </p>
<p>I know plenty trades people who are financially much better off than many college grads sans debt.
Just wondering the whole everyone must go to college is that many kids are being sold a bill of goods and many would be better off learning a viable trade. If one reads/listens to those young people with the debt, they are in jobs that they would have gotten out of high school
A sister of one of my d is an NYU graduate 18 months ago, working at Nordstroms for 11.50 an hour. Don't think she planned on that. Her degree was not in sales/marketing.</p>
<p>Actually the core of the immoral condition is that the much of academe has become a moral equivalent of a rent to own. The promised product is grossly overpriced and when if it doesn't work the payments will nonetheless continue forever. </p>
<p>It wouldn't matter as much for the 40% (pick your number) who should not be in college, if the funding structure of academe had not been corrupted into a lenders bonanza. Under a more equitable higher education funding system those who could not succeed in academic studies could then leave and go onto more suitable endeavors. And without having the rest of their working lives and their potential contribution to society wrecked by a debtors ball and chain. </p>
<p>And those who can succeed would not find themselves as happens so often, in a condition of debt servitude which leads them to also wonder why they bothered to go to college. </p>
<p>So perhaps our career expert might spend a little more time commenting about the morality of a system which is structured in such a manner that it economically devastates both those who fail and many of those who do succeed.</p>
<p>[So Percell borrowed enough money to pay about $24,000 a year to attend Rivier College in Nashua, N.H. She's about $85,000 in debt.</p>
<p>"I was told just to take out the loans and get the degree," she said, "because when you graduate, you're going to be able to get that good job and pay them off, no problem."</p>
<p>But for three years, Percell has struggled to find a job with her degree in human development. And the recession has made her search even tougher. To pay the bills, she took a low-level desk job with an insurance company, doing work she says she could have done straight out of high school.]</p>
<p>I took two courses at Rivier a long time ago. The topics were college-level topics but they felt like they were taught at a high-school level. The average SAT score there is in the 900s and they have many majors that aren't in the high-paying job category, even for elite schools. I was surprised at how inexpensive the school is. Tuition is around $21,000 and the campus is quite nice, in a nice section of a city with a low crime rate.</p>
<p>In my opinion, she would have had the opportunity for a better education at Middlesex Community College (14 miles to the southeast for the Lowell campus and 30 miles southeast for the Bedford campus) for $3,500 per year tuition as a commuter student for two years. I think that the opportunities for academics are better and they offer a wider variety of technical training if the student finds that they'd prefer that over a four-year program. UNH in Manchester (half an hour north of Rivier) provides an even more rigorous academic program (but they only do up to two years) for about $8,000 in tuition per year and I think that they provide for priority into UNH at Durham. NH instate rates at UNH would be attractive with tuition around $11,000 compared to Rivier. My opinion is that the degree from UNH would be more marketable than the degree from Rivier.</p>
<p>Shopping for colleges can be an incredible amount of work. Our son took dual-enrollment courses from six different institutions and I did a fair amount of shopping around for those courses looking for quality. In some areas, it can be pretty hard to find. Students should be looking for educational value and it appears to me that many don't look at that aspect. They've been fooled by the easy credit attitudes of the US that have caused financial ruin in other aspects of our economy.</p>
<p>Yes, graduating with crushing debt is going to become an increasing problem as folks are encouraged to "follow their dreams," without regard to the realities of paying off the debt down the road. Some folks on CC post about how they are fine with taking out 6 figure loans to go to their dream school to pursue whatever degree. As parents, many of us caution against it, but of course each individual is entitled to figure it out for him/herself.</p>
<p>My S took a college course while in HS at a local private. He was really disappointed about the caliber of teaching and students. D took several semesters at local CC & was pretty satisfied with the instructors there. It really varies and is tough for folks to get honest & accurate info.</p>
<p>Up until the 1950's the college degree meant position, prestige, and money. This was true because only rich, extremely hard-working, or very intellectually gifted students got to go to college. Even the GI Bill of World War II only made college available for smart servicemen. It basically enabled people to recover opportunities they would have had without their required wartime service to our country.</p>
<p>In the reaction to "sputnik", National Defense Student Loan and other programs made college accessible to many students studying math and science. The academic establishment, dominated by other disciplines, lobbied for and got extension of programs to other fields. Selling degrees on credit to people of marginal intellectual attainment became a major industry.</p>
<p>Today almost anyone who is willing to go into debt can get a degree from somewhere. Does this guarantee a secure future? No. There are too many individuals with degrees that have no work skills seeking too few jobs. Employers are limiting recruitment to "ivy only", "major state university","accredited engineering school","distinguished busness program", etc.</p>
<p>The guy in my high school class who has made the most money over the past 30 years is a paint and body man with his own shop. He went to trade school. This group includes doctors, lawyers, dentists and major corporate executives.</p>
<p>When you buy a college education, what are you getting? Employers are not going to pay you to "do your own thing". They will only pay you to do their thing.</p>
<p>I don't believe in college as the equivalent of a white collar trade school, i.e., going to college to get a good job per se. Developing qualities that might lead you to a fulfilling career, possibly, but that's a different matter.</p>
<p>However, the question of going into debt should be reframed in terms of how much, for who, and for what major(s). Part of the "who" includes "what kind of academic performance" and "at what school." For the "B" student majoring in English or History at a college outside some arbitrary range like the top 150 universities and LAC's combined, no, not very much debt is defensible.</p>
<p>For the summa cum laude student with an attractive combination of major(s), internships, and other "plus" background bits at an Ivy or other school that tends to float to the top of resume stacks, a substantial amount of debt can be justified.</p>
<p>Someone will undoubtedly say this is elitist. Well...yes. Doesn't stop it from being true.</p>
<p>This thread reminds me. A satellite campus of a lesser known NE American college (though mentioned on CC, I looked it up) has recently come to our Canadian city. Beautiful brochures, the NE campus is gorgeous and sounds great. </p>
<p>But I read the admissions requirements for this satellite campus, designed for foreign and Canadian applicants. No SATs required. No particular grades either. One just have to have gotten their HS diploma (it actually says to have 'passed required courses for graduation'). </p>
<p>They have, and will only have, a few tenure-track faculty and the rest will be adjuncts (I checked).They have one downtown building, no campus per se, no dorms. Virtually no services as far as I can tell. </p>
<p>The kicker to me is that tuition comes close to $20k a year. To put it in perspective, top notch educational options are available at our best universities for $5k and the well regarded community colleges are 3k a year. </p>
<p>I see true value in open-enrollment options so everyone has a chance who wants to better themselves, for whatever reason (IF the price is realistic and doesn't require deep debt). But virtually no admission standards combined with unusually high tuition seems, on the surface at least, like exploitation.</p>
<p>What about the vast range of kids in the middle--that A/B students who are not quite sure what they want to major in? How do they factor into your scenario? No debt? Minimal debt? What if they may end up going to law school and later med school? What is "substantial"? </p>
<p>Many of us who went to law school had some pretty esoteric majors like sociology, music theory, English, history, etc. Then again, there are many who go to law school & later decide they don't like the career. What then?</p>
<p>Sorry, there are just a whole lot of variables but I agree that it is irresponsible for folks "allow themselves" to be brainwashed that a college degree is the be-all & end-all, "at all costs." I cringe any time I read of yet another young person writing about taking on substantial debt for college.</p>
<p>Wish they would cut back on the lavish facilities and provide a good education at more reasonable prices at more places.</p>
<p>"Many of us who went to law school had some pretty esoteric majors like sociology, music theory, English, history, etc."</p>
<p>I've always thought of law as something rather parasitic on society - kind of like banking and that it disproportionately reaps the rewards of society but that's just a personal opinion.</p>
<p>It was easier for those of us that were older as the costs of college relative to family income, minimum wage, starting salary, etc. were lower than they are today. Furthermore, we face the specter of wage deflation weakening the financial attractiveness of taking out huge loans to fund four years of finding ourselves.</p>
<p>My cousin is an ADA in NY. They were hiring some just graduated lawyers. She would tell some of them that the $50,000 starting salary was not enough for them to live on due to the amount of college debt they had. That's pretty scary.<br>
My daughter is a HS freshman and we are just beginning to look into college financing. We have decide that she should not come out of school with more than the price of a modest new car in debt. I believe she will get some merit aid. She will be in top 5-10% of class, tests well and is involved in several ECs. But I'd rather she come out of a lower ranked school with little or no debt, than an Ivy with a mortgage payment.</p>
<p>My cousin is an ADA in NY. They were hiring some just graduated lawyers. She would tell some of them that the $50,000 starting salary was not enough for them to live on due to the amount of college debt they had. That's pretty scary.<br>
My daughter is a HS freshman and we are just beginning to look into college financing. We have decide that she should not come out of school with more than the price of a modest new car in debt. I believe she will get some merit aid. She will be in top 5-10% of class, tests well and is involved in several ECs. But I'd rather she come out of a lower ranked school with little or no debt, than an Ivy with a mortgage payment.</p>
<p>"My cousin is an ADA in NY. They were hiring some just graduated lawyers. She would tell some of them that the $50,000 starting salary was not enough for them to live on due to the amount of college debt they had. That's pretty scary." </p>
<p>And that problem is extended into other groups beyond lawyers and doctors. Many of my colleagues in academe are little better than literate sharecroppers for the lenders. And increasingly I (and others) within academe are advising students not to continue on for terminal or advanced degrees. Simply because the cost/debt issue is increasingly impossible to reconcile with the pay of many academic jobs. Disturbing insofar as to preserve ethical integrity it's becoming increasingly necessary to compromise the system of which we are part.</p>
<p>Would you have any more sympathy when these people begin to turn their abilities against our system rather than to its benefit? That's the point where such laissez faire attitudes often have unintended consequences on those who promulgate them. </p>
<p>And yes students may make poor choices in careers. But the information upon which they research their career options is in itself premised on other self referential agendas. </p>
<p>Plus the concept of limiting moral responsibility to those who've been adversely affected by unjust or failing system is at best simplistic and at worst complicit. Moral obligations in any functioning society are reciprocal. To do otherwise is to admit, whether openly stated or not, that such a system is immoral.</p>
<p>I found the college degree earning potential statement will offer a gain of 1 million in earning power over a lifetime interesting. What they neglect to add, is the salaries of Mike Bloomberg, et el are averaged into this earning power, so in reality does a BS give that much earning power in later years unless one choses a career of higher caliber. I think that is the ultimate answer to the benefit of a college degree.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Would you have any more sympathy when these people begin to turn their abilities against our system rather than to its benefit? That's the point where such laissez faire attitudes often have unintended consequences on those who promulgate them.