NCP confidentiality

Paying for College
21

It’s obvious that you’re getting nervous because your D’s choices are going to be costly, yet no one seems able to pay…not the CP or the NPC.

Are you telling your D this now? Have you made it clear all along that you may not be able to pay ANYTHING?

I recall that a few months ago, you hinted that you would pay more for a “top school”…where would that money come from? Big loans? Why would someone who can’t cover household bills take out big loans?

Anyway…instead of trying to convince us, you should be communicating with your D. I’m concerned that once all the acceptances and pkgs are on the table, none of her schools will be affordable…unless it’s one that she really doesn’t want to go to.

22

I hope it works out FCCDad. The fact of the matter is that if someone is unemployed in the family, no money coming in, then that’s it. But had you been in a child support till 21 state, somehow, that money would have had to have been found to pay the support. I know folks who have that child support end circled on their calendars years in advance. I believe that is set by what the parent, not the step earns in a household. You can request a Personal Judgement with the unemployment as you know, if that is the case, but your DD should have (and fortunately does have) low cost alternatives. Unfortunately, it 's become more and more common for high achieving kids to have high (in price too) goals in terms of college. It has to be a “name” school, has to be away, etc, etc. A lot of very disappointed, unhappy, bitter kids each year, when the chips are down, and one has to ante up.

23

When D1 starts college, i shall pay what i can, which basically depends on my wife’s job situation. Court ordered CS has meant a lot of other things like old legal bills, new roof, new heat pump, etc., have been put off for a few years, because they are not required by law.
D1 is very much aware that I am unable to say now how much I will be able to contribute. Telling her ahead of time that it is an issue is her introduction to adult concerns, I suppose.
If she gets into an Ivy, I could justify putting off the new roof, etc., for four years. Maybe. Money is always a concern. But if it is a school that gives her no career advantage over the public schools, then I’ll advise her not to go deeply in debt but i will not pick up the difference.

24

In this situation, it might be wiser to tell your daughter to choose from among the more affordable schools. If she starts at an expensive school and you have financial reversals, how will she make up the amount you can no longer pay? Better to have her at a school you’re sure you can afford for all 4 years.

25

FCCDAD, as I recall, you reside in a state with some very very good public university options…with the instate status for costs, these are a wonderful option to have.

Somehow, it all will work out. It always does.

26

In practice, either of the divorced parents should be able to “reverse engineer” an approximation of the other parent’s income and assets after seeing a financial aid offer (or really just the school’s expected family contribution) from a CSS Profile school and then trying some scenarios with the school’s net price calculator.

27

Re: #19

Actually, requiring NCP information is a way to exclude many of the higher-need students, since divorced parents tend to be poorer after spending for lawyers, maintaining two households instead of one, etc… So even if they are cooperative, they may not be able to afford the school’s EFC anyway. Of course, if the parents are still at war with each other (spending more money on lawyers), then the situation is even worse.

So, looking at it from a more cynical viewpoint, that is just another way for a school to claim to be generous with financial aid, without having to give too much financial aid money. Admission preferences for legacies and extracurriculars associated with high income are other ways.

28

Not requiring NCP involvement can lead to situations where kids with well to do NCPs end up getting financial aid. As it is, I’ve seen kids qualify for PELL and other low income grants with a parent who makes over a half million dollars because FAFSA does not take NCP financial beyond child support into account. If you know the system well, you can milk it if things work out a certain way, and you go only for the options that are favorable to you.

Vanderbilt and UChicago are school that do not take UCP financials fully into account, I believe, and also give genrous aid. Other schools do give NCPs a bit of a break on the formulas, but this is not something easily findable or discussed.

The system as it now stands makes it so that those with parents deemed able to pay but who won’t, can’t get financial aid and makes liars out of a lot of the fin aid claims made by schools.

29

You’ve got a kid living with mom, recently gone back to work as a part-time dental hygienist; bio-dad is a cardiologist. They are divorced; mom’s income qualifies them for a very generous need-based aid package. Is there anyone who thinks that every other kid who applies to this college with need should be “penalized” because the financial aid budget has been used up subsidizing this kid (who has a parent able to pay full freight- whether he will pay or not is another question) just because the parents have divorced?

None of the divorced people I know right now think it’s “fair” that the NCP’s income is included. None of the married people I know think it’s fair that a wealthy divorced parent could get away with not paying a dime towards their kids college educations just because they are not the custodial parent and therefore their income and assets should be shielded.

It always stinks to be the kid however.

30

But how common is the situation of cooperative divorced parents with the NCP having high income, relative to situations where the parents are poor or uncooperative, or the NCP is unreliable in doing FA forms?

31

I’m sure most of the time the NCP is uncooperative or unreliable, regardless of his or her economic status. But does that mean that every divorced kid gets a pass on parental support even when that NCP is affluent?

32

Having a wealthy NCP is basically the same as having a wealthy grandparent. Related to you, often both able and willing to contribute, but not in the household and therefore not ethically compelled to pay for college for children they are not raising themselves. If you want the child to have two involved and supportive parents through college, you need to start LONG before college.

I have discussed this elsewhere (and it’s getting a bit off topic): I have fought long and hard against D1’s mother’s continuing efforts to cut me out of my own child’s life. That conflict is ongoing. I expect many NCPs would, and do, give up long before, when they simply run out of money for legal fees. You have custodians (not all, but so many) who want to completely remove the NCP from the child’s life, and then complain that the NCP is not acting “parental” when it comes time for college, with regard to a child who is made a virtual stranger if not completely estranged.

You have children showing up here, time and again, saying their custodian gets CS but they don’t have a good relationship with the NCP, and don’t WANT any relationship with the NCP, and asking how they can get a waiver to avoid asking the NCP’s financial info. They are so completely poisoned that they get outraged at anyone who suggests re-establishing a relationship with the NCP. (And we’re NOT talking about molestation or abuse cases, here.) That’s entirely the custodian’s work on display.

There may be some NCPs who refuse all contact and have cut themselves off, but I’ll bet that there are many times that number who have been shut out by the custodians acting as “gatekeepers” and controlling access to and contact with the child. If an NCP feels that the custodian has abused the system to prolong her revenge on him long enough, I can’t really blame him for being suspicious when the child she has turned against him suddenly asks for money, in return for… what? Spurning him some more?

33

I don’t know how common the situation is statistically, but I see it a lot in the 15 years my kids have been doing the college walk. I do see a LOT of cases where parents refuse to fill out the forms, or do so and won’t follow up with questions or verifications. So the kid gets no aid.

Considering about half the families are divorced by the time kids are in high school, there are a lot of families with NCPs. That fits the kids I know who are my high schooler’s peers. Kids in split up famiies tend to have more issues in terms of who pays for what for college, though intact families are not immune. One of the top kids at my son’s school did not apply to schools with no merit awards, because his dad has made it clear that can’t /won’t pay for college and neither will stepdad who also makes enough to put kid out of fin aid range. NYhas child support till age 21 and that will pay for room and board for the kid who has a full tuition scholarship in hand right now and likely some other options as well. But if it weren’t for his family situation where he has TWO fathers who can , but won’t pay, he’d likely be looking at some Ivy possibilities.

34

The kids get screwed- that’s for sure. Having a kid puts you in the crosshairs of a lot of responsibilities that aren’t much fun. But I am not all that sympathetic to the plight of a non-custodial parent with plenty of assets who would rather see the child’s education as someone else’s responsibility and not their own.

Sympathetic to the kid- 100%. But to let an affluent parent off the hook because the marriage went south?

Fine- the kid can go to West Point or get any other “free” education to which he or she is qualified. But to ask your average Joe Q taxpayer to be subsidizing the children of affluent parents who are angry at their ex-spouse?

Not my problem.

FCC- you describe a very sad situation. But financial aid policies can’t be expected to fix every dysfunctional family in America, especially ones where there are significant assets to pay for college.

Like I said- it’s the kid who gets screwed.

35

Getting way off topic, but…

@blossom‌ “I am not all that sympathetic to the plight of a non-custodial parent with plenty of assets who would rather see the child’s education as someone else’s responsibility and not their own.”

How about an NCP who is denied contact with his own child? How about an NCP whose child is trained to believe that her father doesn’t love her? At what point does the NCP get your sympathy?

“Sympathetic to the kid- 100%. But to let an affluent parent off the hook because the marriage went south?”

How about admitting that the NCP should be treated as more than an ATM? How about connecting what you feel should be the ongoing financial responsibilities with everything else that makes someone a parent?

How about admitting that in the vast majority of divorces, there is nothing that would have been legal grounds for divorce in the old pre-“no fault” days? How about admitting that the NCP is usually in that position because he (vast majority are fathers, not mothers) got caught off completely off guard by the wife (vast majority of filers are the wife, not the husband) filing for divorce in what he thought was a perfectly normal family?

Studies show that infidelity, substance abuse, prison, etc., are only the proximate cause of divorce in only a small portion of cases. The vast majority simply have one spouse deciding and telling the other that she doesn’t want him around anymore.

“But to ask your average Joe Q taxpayer to be subsidizing the children of affluent parents who are angry at their ex-spouse?”

How about saying Joe Q should pay taxes for subsidizing all children to get educated, and universities to do research, because research and educated graduates are a public benefit to everyone? The students are NOT the customer; the students are the (main) product, the community is the customer.

I expect to pay for my own children’s education, so much as part of that cost is passed on through the student. (in fact, I expect D1’s mother to try to stick me with the entire cost.) But even if I had no children, I would expect to pay for a university system to keep on working. Students don’t found or (for the most part) fund universities, students are simply the raw resource the universities need to do their work.

You don’t want to subsidize my child’s education, but if you pay taxes, you already do. And if you do business with donors, you already do.

I, on the other hand, don’t want your child walking around uneducated. I don’t want young adults who flip burgers or stock shelves, mindless things that any teen can do, instead of using an education and their aptitude and experience and imagination to come up with solutions for actual problems.

36

FWIW my kids’ FA packages have not been broken down by custodial/non-custodial parent contribution. As was pointed out, they don’t come to ME anyway, they have gone to the kids who can share the info with whatever parent(s) they like.

37

PS: My D’s NCP did his form, which is separate from mine and confidential - I don’t know what he put, D doesn’t know, though we know the ballpark because he and I are on good terms as he is also with D.

But now I am doing idoc and what do they want in addition to my tax forms? His. In the same system as mine. How does he send THAT without me seeing, or me uploading mine without him seeing when they are all sitting there as links on the same web site? It’s weird. In our case it doesn’t really matter, but I wonder how that works in families like FCCDad’s.

38

Sorry, FCCDad, that you picked a dud for your first marriage. But you made the pick, it didn’t work out and for whatever reason the court system did not work fairly, it seems, either. But one thing that prevails through all of that is you are still responsible for the support of your child, as your required CS makes it painfully clear. Need a new roof, too bad. Gotta make that payment. Have two more kids, too bad, too. Spouse out of work, too bad. But the feds and your state let you off the hook at age 18 (my state would keep you paying for another 3 years), and so what’s in the divorce decree and whatever you want to pay is up to you. But the kid had little say about all of this. Didn’t pick her parents. Lucky, all the same, and she seems to have flourished, but for all of her accomplishments, she is stuck on whatever YOU and her mother can cough up and will pay for her college. IF she had parents who were making minimum wage, she’d be in better shape in terms of getting fin aid. A lot of her choices probably meet full need. You and the ex are in the clover, sweet stuff, in that you guys may not even qualify for much need, and you have a child who could get some inexpensive choices in terms of college. So the unfairness, IMO, centers more on your poor kid, not the two parents who made a big mistake in picking partners.

NOne of us have much choice in the taxes we have to pay. Most of us don’t do it because of our concern for other people’s kids and we try to pay as little as we can. So, yes, the more the parents of any given child can contribute. it stretches the money further, as far as I’m concerned. Why should families who have managed to work together to stay together and picked the right partners have to pay mroe than those who go off and start another family leaving a kid without support if possible. Nope. The rules at least the most selective schools’ close certain doors to kids who are unlucky enough to have parents who can but won’t pay. Too bad if the parent had bad luck, bad choices, lost the money, have other obiigations. If the parent of the kid and anyone such parents should marry won’t pay, others are not going to pay either. Though bear in mind that the taxes tend to go mostly to FAFSA type public school and want aid they have.

If it were up to me I’d strip the privates from all federal aid and let them buy their students as they can, and put the money into the public universities as most of the world has done, so there is a more level playing board for more students. I think the school hike up the prices to use up the federal entitlements anyways. Virginia, your state, has a great model for the way public schools should work. Too bad most of the other states do not. UMass should be giving Harvard a lot of competition. Same with the SUNYs and Columbia/NYU. Not happening right now.

You don’t have to pay for your daughter beyond what your decree states. She’ ll likely do just fine that way too. She has a lot of alternatives. But, if you want more for her–if she gets into Princeton or Harvard, say, and that whets your appetite for the elites (full disclosure: it whets mine) then you may well have to pay to get that. It will be your choice, no one else’s .

39

Just checking in to say that i called CB about something else and also asked about the CP/NCP returns in idoc and he said I give the same login info to her NCP that I used and he uploads his return but neither of us can see in the uploaded docs, just the list of docs.

40

A wealthy NCP is NOT like having wealthy grand parents. At least in this narrow corridor of child support right on through college. Grandparents are not legally required to pay for their grandchildren, and grandchildren are not shut out of fin aid even if Grandparents are billionaires. Though NCP’s do not HAVE to release financials, unless they do, no financial aid is available for their kids at most of the top schools in the country, including, I believe your own state’s top public schools. They put the NCP and spouse on the hook to pay along with the CPand spouse but often not as much as they would with a single family income that is the same as it would be for the two families There will be two asset allowances and some leeway in the calcs for some of the schools.

The an unfortunate reality that is most unfair and terrible that when a divorce occurs, the kid is stuck in the middle, and if one parent or both are unreasonable, so much the worse for the kid. But kids and family, innocent family members tend to always pay when someone in the circle makes a mistake or suffers a misfortune. So it goes when a marriage was one of those mistakes and a child is involved.