Ah. But the gift here is that the top university in the OPs state will be at the instate rate for his daughter…if he can declare her on his taxes. That makes that absolutely top notch school a huge bargain that many folks would be thrilled to have as an option. And saves the family a huge amount over the OOS rate or the cost of an equivalent private university.
A number of kids from divorced parents have the options of two state systems at in state prices. I see that a lot. But it can become squeeze time if a kid gets accepted to HPY but no fin aid because of the two familes such a kid has. Then the decisions have to be made as to whether pay up though it hurts, or give it up and go with less cost. If you absolutely cannot do it, then there is no choice. The pain is what comes from the squeeze in doing it , especially if money is very tight. You can scream long and loud about not having to fill out NPC financial forms, that it’s not fair, but if you want it for your kid, it’s gonna hurt bad.
OHMomof2: It took me a minute but I finally found on the IDOC paperwork where it says NCP tax returns can be sent under separate cover if necessary. I made a copy of the cover page, highlighted his name and a few other things to be sure it was done correctly, and passed it along when D went to visit.
FCCDad: Maybe you should consider contributing the same amount that you’ve been paying for child support over the years? A lot of what you say in this thread (and others) has me cringing (no offense please), just knowing that D’s bio Dad is most likely saying the same things, although we appear to have a less rocky relationship. I’m lucky though that in MA child support is continued until age 21 and I’ve been told will most def be continued until four years of undergrad is complete. The income of NCP and spouse is at least four times greater than my household AFTER he pays support. One of those reasons is because he was unavailable (due to work commitments) to help with the daily care of D, wasn’t available to take sick time to care for her when needed, wasn’t in a position to get her to or from school or care for her after school hours, thus I gave up what might have been a lucrative career to provide that stability and parental access children need. Both of us couldn’t have great careers, someone had to put theirs on a back burner, and so I did. Although I don’t regret for a minute being home at 4pm everyday and being able to take sick time to care for her, now that she is nearly an adult and I realize I’m stuck in this low-paying job in my mid-50s, I resent it a bit. Bio Dad has had 18 years to save for college and dump $$ in his 401K and take vacations, and purchase toys without too much hardship. He paid good child support which enabled me to take D on vacation each year, make sure she had everything she needed and some of what she wanted but there was never anything left over for retirement and I couldn’t start saving for college until about 4 years ago when she was finally old enough to not need after school care and I could pick up a 2nd and 3rd job. Now he thinks I should match what he is willing to pay (which is about 5% of their gross income). Its a lose-lose for D. I’ve committed to 20% of our gross income,that’s what matches his 5%, but it is going to limit her. Because of his income she can’t get financial aid at most of her choice schools. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again ~ she’s a very bright girl who loves her father very much, and he her as well, she can use a calculator…he’ll either be the good guy or he won’t but he’ll own his own choices,as will I.
Colleges obviously have to make a choice:
(a) Require NCP financial information, which avoids letting NCP income and wealth off the hook if the CP and NCP are cooperative, but financially locks out a larger number of potential students with uncooperative parents or unreliable NCPs, who are probably lower than average income and wealth.
(b) Do not require NCP financial information, which expands opportunities for a group of lower than average income and wealth, but which allows the relatively few students with divorced cooperative parents with a high income and wealth NCP to get more financial aid than they would otherwise get.
Most “generous with financial aid” schools obviously choose (a) above, since it is better for their budgets, and the locking out of a significant size class of lower than average income and wealth students tends not to be on the radar when people think of schools as being “generous with financial aid”. A few schools like Chicago apparently realize a marketing opportunity in choosing (b), since they can have to themselves a pool of students that many of their competitor schools refuse to give enough financial aid to. Some public schools (like those in California) choose (b) for policy reasons, as does the national government.
At that point when the Financial aid is given, and if the student can get one part of the parental contribution, as I said earlier, it won’t be a big mystery at all what the formulas expect Dad to pay and what Mom to pay. If Dad’s expected contribution is $20K a year and Mom’s is $10K and mom agrees to pay her $10k, it’s pretty danged clear who is paying less than what a neutral calculator used by hundreds of thousands of students and families is saying. Dad is not able or willing to pay his share as the college system including those schools that Dad very much respects and would love his children to attend, is deeming that he should contribute. That mom is coming up with that amount even AFTER losing the child support is a testament to her ability to pay, and yes, stepdad’s numbers are in the mix too.
When one parent works hard (and seems to succeed) in alienating the child from the parent, on the other hand, it may be hard for the parent to feel that s/he is a part of the child’s equation, and conflate his/her estrangement with his need to contribute to this ungrateful child’s education. S/he may feel to some extent that the child has been “lost” already. Not the right “math” in many people’s opinion, but it is human nature.
A good lesson in not using the children against the “ex.” Both parents are really needed by the child.
In the end the child is the loser, and is a victim of forces beyond his/her control. Each child in this sort of situation probably very much loves both parents despite how she acts, and will find ways to show it as she matures.
I do want to say one thing. There is no necessity for any student to,attend a $60,000 a year college if the family is not totally on board. In almost every case, there are more affordable options. For a student who is really a competitive applicant to many of those elite schools, that same student could garner merit aid elsewhere, and the family income would not matter…custodial or non-custodial.
In many of the discussions on this forum, the focus when discussing non-custodial parent contributions is on those Profile schools which are very costly…all of them.
The OP even states that his D has some very affordable choices, but doesn’t want to attend them. Why? What is the magic about making your parents crazy over a $60,000 a year school that someone thinks they can’t afford?
Looking at affordable options Isnt the worst thing in the world. And especially when it can preserve family peace.
I think it’s time to say to the student, ‘Hey, be thankful you have parents who can pay for you to attend college. Here’s the budget. Here are a list of schools in the budget. Pick one. Don’t judge your parents on how much they love you by how much we can afford for a school.’
I don’t think there is anything wrong with any parent whether divorced, single, remarried, never married to decide what is affordable and what isn’t for him/her. The children and exes can disagree. They can believe they deserve to go to Yale, that all their friends got to go to any college they wanted too, and that might be true. Too bad. Some parents with large retirement funds or savings got there by saving their money, not always buying the biggest house or most expensive room at the resort or eating at Ruth’s Chris instead of the Outback. Many parents are capable of weighing the value of any purchase, including college. People don’t go shopping for houses saying “I’ll pay whatever it costs” but rather “I have $300k, show me houses in that price range.” It is okay for parent to do the same with college, “I’ll pay $xx, find a school that works for that.” If the student insists on something that costs more, it’s likely that student will end up with no school.
My kids don’t have a second parent, so no one else to look to for extra money. They’d love it if someone would agree to pay for a portion of an inexpensive state school. They also know (knew) that even if the school thought an EFC of $30-40k was do-able for our family, I had veto power because I knew I couldn’t afford it, much like I couldn’t afford the mortgage I was approved for 20 years ago so I found a house at about 2/3 of the approved amount because, while the mortgage company didn’t care if I wouldn’t be able to afford retirement and toothpaste if I borrowed the full approved mortgage amount, I cared.
FCCDad, you say your obligations to your daughter are over (and I agree with you, you should get the option to be done legally) but that if she got into a better college, you’d pay more. Why? Is she not the same kid, and either your moral obligation or not, whether she goes to Old Dominion or Yale? Does your moral obligation change somehow because you think the college is more prestigious? That I don’t understand. State your position: “I can pay this much for college; if you go to a Virginia school and I can claim you as a dependent, that amount will allow you to go to UVa, VaTech, W&M. If you don’t go to school in Va or I can’t claim you as a dependent, you still have $xx. That’s it.” I’d leave your wife’s job situation out of it. If you later can provide more, great, but right now you can provide $xx.
She’s lucky she has great choices but my position would be the same no matter what state you lived in. $xx is available, and that’s it. Where you set that $xx is up to you, but certainly that amount it would cost you for 1/2 or 3/4 of instate tuition is more than reasonable, or the child support amount.
Not at all alike. People who can’t be bothered to pay for their own kids when they have more than enough money to do so get no sympathy from me. I don’t care if they live on the moon; when people have a child it’s up to both of them to support him or her to the best of their ability, not foist those expenses off on the rest of the taxpayers.
@cptofthehouse “Virginia, your state, has a great model for the way public schools should work. Too bad most of the other states do not.”
I’m not sure I understand this at all. UVA gets about 10% of their funding from the state government. They have an unusually large endowment for a public school, and of course have various other income streams - federal research grants, alumni and business donations, commercialization and licensing of their research and inventions, etc.
Are you saying that other schools should work almost entirely without state funding in their budgets? Are you saying that other schools can work this way? If UVA isn’t unique, they are certainly unusual - and you need the long history and the endowment and the prestige in place before you can completely shift your funding that way.
My state does not have the great choices that yours does. A lot of states do not. I’d love to see the public schools being the most sought schools, and be priced affordably for more families and students. VA has a number of great choices, schools high in the rank, ratings, reputation, 3 Rs. My state–most of the top kids have no interest in going to a SUNY because they are lacking in that respect.
I was not referring to the funding part of UVA and W&M is also heavily self funded (as are some other public flagshps like Pitt and Penn State) but in the way that VA has managed to have their top schools be publics. So it is to a large extend with the UCs. NY has tried to emulate the CA model but has not succeeded, neither in meeting full need for most students, nor for making the state schools so desired.
My son had both UVA and W&M on his list. Had to prod to get a SUNY on there.
There seems to be some confusion.
I filled out the CSS NCP Profile. I am not trying to withhold my information from the schools. In fact, I would try to show it to D1, if I didn’t expect she would immediately share it with her mother, who would then immediately try to make trouble for me. I will nevertheless go over all details of income and expenses with D1 when we see her FA offers and she needs to make a final decision about where to send her deposit.
I am not complaining about my taxes, not now, not ever. I happen to think the government does incredibly important work, that cannot be effectively done by any lesser entity.
I hope the schools do not in any way violate confidentiality by breaking down how much they think they can get out of each parent.
I cannot pay my household expenses on my income alone. My wife is now working a temporary contract; she has nothing pending for when that ends. If my wife gets a regular job, then I expect to be able to contribute to D1’s college costs. If my wife does not have a regular job, then I cannot commit to any amount. The end of CS simply means that I’ll be able to resume paying down my own student loans and my attorney’s fees; I won’t have it available as extra cash at the end of each month. It’s not sitting around waiting for me to come up with something to spend it on.
I fully expect that the 3 private schools that use NCP Profile will all find that the EFC, given incomes from 2 working parents and 2 stepparents (as of today both technically working), is larger than the estimated cost of attendance. Therefore I believe they will simply say there is no financial need. For example, if they think her mother could contribute $30k and they think I could contribute $40k (to pick sufficiently large numbers), I expect and hope they will simply say something like, “Expected Family Contribution: $60k (full estimated cost of attendance).” The reason I expect this is because D1’s mother and her husband live in an economically depressed area and have a six figure income. I live in a more expensive area but also have a six figure income.
If D1 gets into a super selective school such that I think the mere name on her degree would open doors for her throughout life, (example: Ivy), then I would try to come up with more money than I had planned on, if needed. Even then, what could be done is far from unlimited. But I do think it would be buying advantages for her, above and beyond the value of the education itself. Other schools schools, that do not provide such advantages, would not be worth forcing my wife and children to go without, no matter how much D1 likes the other schools.
I have no legal or moral obligation to pay anything. If it weren’t for her mother’s unending litigation, I would have at least $50k-$75k sitting around and available, instead of my attorney using it to put her own kids through college. If D1 doesn’t like the limitations on how much money there isn’t, she has my full sympathy; there could have been so much more money and so many more options open (and so much less acrimony) had things been otherwise. But you can wish into one hand and spit into the other, and just see which one fills up first. Regret won’t change the situation.
If anyone thinks my starting another family was foolish, you may be right. However, that is the most important thing to me in life, to have and raise children of my own. If you think that was selfish, F you; it was not my choice or action to break up the first family or live childlessly.
“If you go to a Virginia school and I am not claiming you as my dependent on my state and federal taxes, then you should be prepared to pay the OOS tuition surcharge after your first year. I don’t think that’s a risk worth taking, but the decision is your mother’s. If I am claiming you and your’e in a Virginia school, I will do everything I possibly can to make sure you won’t have to leave due to lack of contribution from me; it’s up to you to get your mother’s contribution from her, I’m never speaking to her again. If you are not in a Virginia school, I will simply contribute what I can. I do not now know how much that will be.”
I don’t think anyone is jumping on you FCCDAD about anything. It 's a top spot you are in. Just saying that whether you share your info with your DD or not, if she sees her mother’s info, and what the school will be giving her, she and her mother , and whoever else see the info, can deduce your numbers without a whole lot of know how. So the confidentiality isn’t going to be complete. Exact breakdowns, no, but what the schools expect YOU to pay, yes.
You did mention a legal obligation to split the cost with the mother for college somehow, as part of the decree, and that could be reason for more litigation. Anything can be reason for litigation to the litigious, as you probably well know.
I don’t think starting another family was foolish, nor do I feel you are being mean spirited about what you are and aren’t willing to do. Just wishing you good luck in all of this. Looks like your daughter has some good choices. I hope all works out smoothly.
While it would be a lot easier if you could check the box that you are claiming her on your tax form as a dependent, there is also an option for claiming that you provide at least half her support; I don’t read this as absolutely requiring that she be a dependent. You may not think it is worth her not to be a dependent, but she could take the risk. Just be clear how much you will pay.
Fcc- you are in a tough spot and I don’t mean to suggest otherwise.
But it strikes me (as an outsider who doesn’t know your family) that at the end of the day, you are still a grownup and your D is still a child (not for much longer, but at least between now and when a college decision needs to be made).
Would you consider talking to her-- recognizing that getting her to that conversation will be difficult… and just explaining what you’ve laid out here? (If it were me I’d leave out the Ivy part. If you can’t afford it, you can’t afford it, and there is no financial aid tooth fairy slipping an extra 10K under your pillow at night just because your D got into Dartmouth.)
Just like kids in intact families do- your D needs to see the facts. Her mother has had ups and downs in terms of her employment, no guarantees going forward. You’ve had major expenses-- legal and otherwise. What the financial aid forms will show does not accurately reflect your capacity to pay right now. And you wish it had been different- but here it is, time for some truth and sympathy.
At the end of the day, my guess is that your D would rather have a relationship with you (even if her mother has demonized you to the end of the earth and back) than not. At the end of the day, my guess is that your D wouldn’t want to go to college knowing that she was dooming you to working until you were 95, or forcing you into an indigent retirement. And given the number of adults I know whose parents divorced during their childhood-- even now, into middle age- the biggest regret is the lack of relationship with the parent who “left”, regardless of who actually left whom.
You will be filling a hole much bigger than a cash flow gap for college if you use this situation as an opportunity to tell your D how much you love her and are proud of her. And you will reap benefits much bigger and snazzier than a college diploma if you and your D can move towards each other by each respecting the other’s needs and point of view.
Your D likely doesn’t know what a strain some of her colleges are going to place on you- not just for four years, but for several years. And she’s old enough to understand that even if her mom tells her that you’ve got dough stashed in all sorts of places to hide it from the courts and child support, if you honestly lay out your financial picture, she will realize where the truth lies.
“You did mention a legal obligation to split the cost with the mother for college somehow, as part of the decree, and that could be reason for more litigation. Anything can be reason for litigation to the litigious, as you probably well know.”
Even if D1’s mother could change the wording to obligate us each to pay half of the non-loan costs, wherever D1 actually goes, she won’t sue for at least 2 reasons:
- She would have to pay it all herself first, up front, before she could should that there had been any harm to her. She would then have to sue to recover the difference from me. She doesn't have the money to pay up front, and she doesn't have the money for an attorney. It's not like custody/support where the system basically does your bidding and all the dirty work for free.
- She would be obligating herself to pay more than she has already committed to, and would not herself get any more money (the school would get it). She thus wouldn't sue because it could only make her bottom line bill worse.
The corollary, of course, is that I also have no legal leverage to force her to pay even as much as she has promised D1.
I assure you the litigation will dry up when she has to pay for it all out of pocket instead of being able to use the courts to squeeze her income (tax free) out of me.
The big talk with D1 about economics will just have to wait until we have all the FA letters in hand. Could be April.
With luck, my wife may be able to get a full time job by then, which would make for a MUCH more pleasant conversation.
Lots of Profile Schools that do not require the non-custodial parent form.
Many of those have their own, though. Oberlin, for instance.
Of course, you can reverse engineer her EFC and possible income and assets, and she can do the same for your EFC and possible income and assets, with just the actual EFC in the school’s financial aid letter and the school’s net price calculator. Doing this with multiple schools with different financial aid methodologies may narrow down the possibilities further.