Need advice in NY State

Parents Forum
61

<p>*am I paranoid to worry about low grad rates? Since realzing that I should lower my sights (interestingly D already was doing so instinctively), I now am looking at schools which I had originally doubted b/c of low retention and grad rates.</p>

<p>How seriously should these be taken? Anyone want to shed light on this, it is of serious concern to me but are my concerns warranted?
*</p>

<p>Grad rates at publics often don’t tell the whole story.</p>

<p>Some kids are only going part-time while working and commuting. Some start because they are expected to go to college, but find that it’s not for them. Some don’t consistently take 15/16 credits each semester so that they aren’t able to graduate on time. Some change their majors a few times which delays graduation. Some flunk out. </p>

<p>That all aside…a student who has his head on straight, has a plan, has funding in place, and gets involved in the school, can have a rewarding experience at a state school and graduate on time from a public :)</p>

<p>It sounds like your family can contribute little to your child’s college costs. If so, then she needs to make sure she has a couple of affordable schools. Student loans will already be in her FA packages so she won’t be able to close a small gap with a Stafford loan. </p>

<p>Even if your D commutes to Marist, she will likely get gapped in funding. Their avg need-based grant is less than $15k…for a school whose tuition is $30k plus books, transportation, and other costs…likely about $33k per year. </p>

<p>Marist middle quartiles</p>

<p>SAT Critical Reading: 530 - 620<br>
SAT Math: 540 - 630
SAT Writing: 540 - 630
ACT Composite: 23 - 27</p>

<p>If your D were able to get her test scores into the upper quartile, she might get a preferential FA package. :)</p>

<p>Sk8rmom and some others here know a lot about the SUNYs…which ones give merit, which ones have honors colleges that would likely accept your D. With Pell, TAP, some merit, and a student loan, there are probably some affordable SUNYs. :)</p>

<p>Be sure to have your D take both the SAT and ACT (she should be able to get waivers). And have her practice for both. High scores on either test will make a significant difference. Some kids do much better on one test than the other, so do both!!!</p>

62

<p>Great feedback, mom2collegekids. Looking forward to other folks’ thoughts on SUNYs. Geography will come into play since campuses are spread across our huge state…would love to hear thoughts on Oneonta and Purchase. My gut feeling is that D would be “lost” on huge campuses like Albany but I would like to hear from others.</p>

63

<p>Retention & grad rates usually correlate most highly with selectivity for admission.</p>

64

<p>SUNY Plattsburgh–love this school. I graduated from here way back in 1982. My son transferred to this school after spending a year at a top tier private college (he hated the campus feel of the private school). He had his choice of transfer acceptances to 4 top tier private colleges as well as Geneseo. We took him up to Plattsburgh for a quick visit during one of his college breaks and he loved the school. He couldn’t believe the friendliness of the student body and the fact that the professors seemed to genuinely care for their students. </p>

<p>Granted, this is a kid who will do well academically at any college. Not only is he very academic, but he’s very driven. He will go the extra mile every time just because he wants to learn above and beyond what’s taught in the classroom.</p>

<p>To make a long story short, he loved his 3 years at this school. Some of his classes only had 8-10 students in them as he moved up in levels. He excelled and professors higher up in the dept. noticed his potential and mentored him along the way. He developed his own independent research projects (outside of class and just for the sheer joy of delving into his interests) and had 2 manuscripts published in journals as an undergrad. His professors also mentored him through the grad school application process.</p>

<p>He graduated at the top in his department and in the top 1% in the entire class. He’s moved on and will finish his Master’s in December of this year at first choice grad program. Last week, while reading a featured CNN world report article (was on the front page of CNN online), we noticed son’s name in the article–they referred to information from one of his previous publications to support the info within this story. </p>

<p>I’m sharing this story with the OP to prove that it isn’t necessarily the rank or the prestige associated with a college that’s important, but the environment at the school and initiative of the student. Don’t focus too much on the grad rates of the SUNY’s. He has known kids who had to leave college not because of the lack of intelligence, but because they simply could not financially afford to continue.</p>

<p>PS–We visited our accountant last week. His son is now a sophomore at Plattsburgh and absolutely loves it. He turned down Geneseo to attend because he felt the fit was better for him. He loves the geographic area. He gets to spend weekends skiing at White Face mountain, hiking in the Adirondacks, visiting Montreal, or simply hanging out with friends in Plattsburgh. The nice thing about Plattsburgh is that you don’t feel as though you’re stuck in the boonies. There are plenty of places to eat off campus, plenty of shopping, malls, movie theater, bowling alley, and close proximity to Burlington, VT and Montreal.</p>

65

<p>D was class of 2011 and we live in NY. She had around an 88 unweighted average and wanted to apply to schools in the greater Capital Region. (All her grades were 82 or above, but she went to a specialized public STEM Vo-Tech program -with grade deflation- which did not teach to the test so many of her Regents scores just made the passing cutoff.) That said, she got in to all her schools to which a complete app and supporting material were submitted (except Smith). This was her list: Smith, LeMoyne, Elmira, Manhattanville, Siena, SUNY Albany, SUNY New Paltz, and Hampshire College. The last is where she attends. She got merit aid at LeMoyne, Elmira, Manhattanville, Siena and Hampshire- with Manhattanville giving the most. She did not get offered Honors at Siena, and did not apply at any other school for those programs if the school had them.</p>

<p>We were very impressed with SUNY New Paltz, and hated, hated SUNY Albany. The latter was originally D’s first choice but she hated the tour, talking to the profs in her expected major and the dorms were lousy.</p>

66

<p>Kinderny,</p>

<p>loved the post and hearing about your D. Sorry she didn’t get into Smith – she sounds like a great candidate! Wow, can’t believe she ended up at Hampshire just b/c it’s so small and my memory of it from 20 yrs ago is that it was extremely arts-oriented. Of course the 5 colelge area is fantastic and she can always cross register so whatever she wants she can get into…</p>

<p>It was very helpful to learn that Manhattanville was generous. This type of information is what will help us develop a list from D to choose from as she launches into her search.</p>

<p>Just curious…how was Siena’s aid package?</p>

67

<p>This was her list: Smith, LeMoyne, Elmira, Manhattanville, Siena, SUNY Albany, SUNY New Paltz, and Hampshire College. The last is where she attends. She got merit aid at LeMoyne, Elmira, Manhattanville, Siena and Hampshire- with Manhattanville giving the most.</p>

<p>How much did Manhattanville give in “free money” (scholarships and grants)?</p>

68

<p>Momcino, my D and I are also getting our expectations realigned. D is a decent student - Our issue is $$. We will not qualify for much in the way of financial aid. </p>

<p>We are looking at the concept of stretch and reach differently. I belive D will be accepted to the schools she has targeted so far (American, Ithaca, Syracuse). However, due the the cost, without significant Merit Aid, she will not be able to attend. For that reason these schools are a financial stretch for us. D will likely qualify for some merit , but what/how much? </p>

<p>We are now resetting ourselves and focusing on finding some “safeties” (financial) that D will love. </p>

<p>If you take your geographic constraints out, there are some great schools you can consider. SUNY Fredonia is a WONDERFUL school. My H and I both attended and loved every minute. I was a transfer from a large state school with much better rankings. I learned so much more from my time at Fredonia. We have lifelong friends that are all very successful in their careers. I have no idea about whether they give $$ but I think they are worth a visit. Dont bring the siblings, if it is difficult to travel, leave one parent at home. D is now considering this school. She has spent enough time there from our travels back to visit friends and she loves the artsy/music feel of the school and town. </p>

<p>We have also learned than manyof the state schools in Ohio, (Kent, Bowling Green) are very transparent in their cost of attendance. You can go to one of their websites to see. Certain GPA, SAT scores qualify for out of state tuition. Additional factors come into play as well. Basically we have learned that the tuition for D would be less than the SUNY tuition. I have no idea about these schools, their reputation, or if they are a fit. Just throwing it out there. </p>

<p>Another thing to consider since money is so critical is that some of the larger SUNY schools seem to give some $$. Niece (very high SATs) received full tuition at both Albany and UB. </p>

<p>There is a thread for parents in the HS class of 2013. I have learned so much.</p>

69

<p>nellieh,</p>

<p>Thanks very much, I loved hearing about your own search with your D.</p>

<p>Another SUNY is very important, besides New Paltz, is the advice I am hearing from other posters (and from GC who said definitely two or even three). SUNY matching is not simple – strengths of individual schools, size and location (not to mention varying levels of selectivite admission)…but we are glad to have SUNY as an option.</p>

<p>My impression is that my D’s grades/scores would not realistically draw $ from larger SUNYs. However with max Pell and TAP and her work study and loans one or two od the SUNYs should be feasible. It is so, so good to know that they exist! How far to travel and which ones are good matches will be projcts for her to investigate.</p>

<p>I have been looking at Purchase since it was suggested, wondering how it is for non-art majors. But again, that far along the discernment will fall to her. We will make possible a visit to whichever ones she comes up with. We go to SUNY New Paltz Open House this weekend. </p>

<p>Sounds like you are up a bit further north. Might be out of your geographical target but but any thoughts on St Rose? Siena?</p>

70

<p>She ended up at Hampshire because she could create her own blend of Animal Husbandry and Ecology. She loves the natural sciences at H, so far any way.</p>

<p>Thoughts on Siena- had to go back and look at earlier postings on CC. It is a bit homogenous. The students on the student panel were not science oriented at all and liked to watch Jersey Shore- so D concluded that “they were not her people”. Many, many students from the Capital Region end up at Siena. </p>

<p>St. Rose is very small, not terribly demanding. Some of the B students from the local h.s. go there. While supportive, some find it claustrophobic. </p>

<p>As for the merit aid D got, I tried to reconstruct and below is what I came up with. What is important to note, except for Hampshire, all the schools came in around 18-22K for D’s and our contribution. Ones that gave us more merit, gave us less FA. (SUNYs gave no merit to D.) All tried to get D to take out the highest available Stafford(?) loan, which we would not allow. YMMV
Siena - $11K merit
Manhattanville- $20K merit
Elmira- $18K merit
LeMoyne- $11K merit</p>

71

<p>kinderny, thanks very much for the breakdown. You know I had assumed that FA would be in addition to merit money. I didn’t realize that if they gave you one they might lower the other.</p>

<p>Many unpleasant learnings. But, better to know the bitter truth now rather than later.</p>

<p>Made a date for Manhattanville – but the grad rates are incredibly low, around 50%. Makes me wonder. Anyhow it is a good way to get us over to Purchase.</p>

<p>Unfortunately Fredonia is rather far for us. As is Plaatsburg. Oneonta is a possibility so SUNY and at the same time, Hartwick, suggested by many bloggers…</p>

<p>But the issue remains: a private LAC without need-based aid may indeed give us scholarships and even (fingers crossed) some amount of merit but it would gap us, and even a few thousand dollars would not be feasible.</p>

72

<p>Okay, just did calculator at Hartwick and we came up with $7,500 student debt and $7,000 family contribution. Not good.</p>

73

<p>*Okay, just did calculator at Hartwick and we came up with $7,500 student debt and $7,000 family contribution. Not good. *</p>

<p>You’re going to find that sort of thing. It’s not unusual for a (non-elite) school to expect a student/family combo to pay at least $15k-20k even if EFC is 0. It seems (to me) that some of these schools may help get some/all tuition covered, but they expect the family/child to pay for room, board, books, fees, misc expenses. </p>

<p>Using Hartwick as an example, by expecting your family to come up with about $15k, they’re expecting you to pay for those personal costs. That’s why we see these horror stories of low income families borrowing/co-signing $60k-100k in student loan debt :frowning: </p>

<p>You know I had assumed that FA would be in addition to merit money. I didn’t realize that if they gave you one they might lower the other.</p>

<p>Exactly. Schools often have a “max package” they’ll give. So, if a student gets merit money (even outside scholarships!), they’ll reduce institutional grants (saving those for other students). And if a student gets gov’t grants, then they may not give as much institutional grants. </p>

<p>Schools do assume that the primary payers for college is the family. Except for the best schools who have lots of money, having a 0 EFC often means little. The term EFC is a misnomer…it’s just a number to determine Pell Grants and such…schools don’t have to meet need.</p>

<p>The truth is that without top stats, many 0 EFCs kids can only afford their state schools…and often can only afford the state school that they can commute to. The idea that colleges have pots of gold to meet need is sadly not true. Going away to school is a luxury. </p>

<p>Your D needs to expand her geography. Schools like Loyola-Maryland meet need. DePauw in Indiana is very generous. </p>

<p>When will your D be taking a SAT and ACT exam? I suggest that she do so as soon as possible so that you have some kind of baseline and also she can determine weak areas and work on improving them. Nowadays, kids are taking these exams a few times each.</p>

<p>*Made a date for Manhattanville – but the grad rates are incredibly low, around 50%. Makes me wonder. *</p>

<p>That suggests to me that some students can no longer afford to keep paying and realize that finishing at a state school accomplishes the same thing.</p>

74

<p>Oops, in the spirit of full disclosure- I actually think D had an 87 average not an 88. Not sure it is key, but conversion tables give 88 a 3.3 and an 87 falls in the 3.0 region.</p>

<p>Re Manhattanville- I think some students that go there are just not ready for a college experience as they may be more marginal students to begin with. (Granted NOT ALL.) I understand that SUNY Purchase has lower grad rates too- I think maybe for the same reason.</p>

<p>And what mom2collegekids says re EFC, FA, etc. is right on, in my experience.</p>

75

<p>

</p>

<p>That rate is not appreciably lower than many public schools, including the SUNYs. I don’t find the graduation rate to be a reliable indicator of either affordability or quality - it’s simply the measure of how many incoming freshmen in a particular cohort remained enrolled and graduated from the school within a specified time frame. It doesn’t measure how many transfer students enrolled and graduated, no adjustment for students who took a gap semester/year, those who graduated late because they changed their majors or decided to add a second major, etc. Certain majors may simply require more than 4 years. It’s one of those semi-interesting but very limited measures, imho.</p>

76

<p>College results online has nice 4 year and 6 year graduation statistics. Has some interesting statistics, which we used and had not seen on other sites when D was looking, that indicate FA for low income students , and grad rates (under the Choose a College section and the Compare Colleges tab).</p>

77

<p>Again, the past few posts are very, very helpful. </p>

<p>I don’t have much else to say at this point, but am taking in all the info re finances, los chances of merit for B students, etc, and also seeing the importance of working on D’s test scores.</p>

78

<p>I have 2 in the honors program at New Paltz and, while this is pure speculation, I think your daughter might be able to talk her way in to the program if she gets into NP, even if her stats don’t qualify her. I can’t remember what those stats are. My oldest had SATs of only 1240ish, math below 500. The program is quite low key, and only 4 honors seminars are required over the 4 years. Merit aid at New Paltz is almost non-existent. Incidentally, both my kids were offered $4000/year merit scholarships at Oneonta. It’s a nice campus, I think less artsy than NP, maybe somewhat whiter, a tiny bit less selective. Good luck.</p>

79

<p>Also, if you’re forced to consider commuting, there’s an honors program at Dutchess Community which gives the second year free for - I think - maintaining a B average, and the tuition is lower than the 4-yr SUNYs to start with. If money is very tight, you might look into it.</p>

80

<p>Hello Furrze,</p>

<p>Great to hear that you have 2 at NP Honors Program. Too bad it doesn’t entail merit $ :slight_smile: but it would be great to keep her, as I said in a previous post, motivated and connected. It would keep her on track academically since she thrives in small settings. The dorm room in a studious part of campus and the seminars would help her, and the pre-reg would help her finish on time (my big concern seeing low grad rates.) </p>

<p>My impression is that b/c it doesn’t really involve many perks like say Hunter, where kids get laptops, free tuition, etc, so it isn’t as competitive but that may by only an impression. Tomorrow we will find out more. I have spoken with the interim director of the Honors program and she was very encouraging. So we are looking forward to it!</p>

<p>I will be asking to clarify if the 95% entering GPA is a requirement or simply the average of accepted Honors students.</p>

<p>Not sure if she would qualify for a merit scholarship at Oneonta, but it sure would be nice. </p>

<p>Even without it, after the NY and Pell aid, she can determine how much of a student loan to take out or how much to supplement with her own earnings. (She is working weekends and started saving last year.) Of course we would invest in her education to thee xtent we are able. There is just such a big difference between trying to scrape together $5 and $20, since it is each year. I gather from posts that there are a lot of other unexpected expenses, once kids start college, but even so, we would be able to swing it! Yeah!</p>

<p>On another topic:
I saw on a college website (Hartwick?) that GPAs are recalculated by the school to get GPA for the five core coursework areas: Math, Science, English, Global/History and Language other than English. Is this true of all college admissions? </p>

<p>And thanks to all the folks who are suggesting that D take the ACTs to see how she does compared to the SATs. Can’t hurt, right?</p>