As a student who isn’t a U.S. citizen, “stronger” implies this student has a decent chance of acceptance to a U.S. medical school as an international student. If this student wants to hope that they are amongst the 132 internationals accepted to medical school here…most of whom are Canadian citizens…he needs to be very aware that an acceptance is a big long shot.
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Hmm… I sincerely appreciate everyone’s advice, and from everyone’s comments, it seems like UofT is a sensible choice in the long run. However, I’m determined to apply to US med schools and fortunately have the funds to do so. In this perspective, UofT could disadvantage me due to the relative grade deflation/lack of resources, which could prevent me from building the best application possible if I committed to UCLA.
Moreover, getting a Canadian PR is not equivalent to Canadian Citizenship so that it wouldn’t help me in any way too. The escrow account is manageable for me.
Going to a Caribbean Medschool is severely disadvantaging as most of their US matched graduates are US residents, plus they rarely get matched into the residencies of their choice.
Again, US med schools tend to mostly care about where their international applicants pursue a degree rather than citizenship, and while the loan program mentioned is a considerable advantage. Luckily, I don’t face it as a significant hurdle.
https://www.f1doctor.com/md-mentors-main-page
After you mentioned your points, I researched criteria for international admissions, and I found this page consisting of international med students pursuing a US MD. A majority are from countries other than Canada; however, what’s common amongst them is that they pursued their undergrad at a US institution.
In my opinion, the data set that @WayOutWestMom has provided is completely true in terms of residence; however, it doesn’t account for internationals who have either received an education within the US/Canada or foreign systems.
Moreover, the PR takes an extended period to obtain, and in a way, time is money. The only reason I’m debating against UofT is that I’m unsure whether gaining a PR as an intl will help my chances of securing admission in any way.
I understand the difficulty of getting into a US medschool as an international but I’m willing to take it as a challenge. Later in hindsight, I wouldn’t regret not shooting my shot when I had the opportunity to.
I’m extremely sorry if I seem adamant, but this is a huge step for me, and I genuinely appreciate the advice everyone has to offer 
UofT could disadvantage me due to the relative grade deflation/lack of resources.
UCLA is known to have grade deflation too. And the sheer number of UCLA premeds means that pre-med resources like research lab positions and nearby clinical volunteer sites are under heavy pressure.
But you’ve made up your mind, good luck on your journey.
This is NOT true. They care about the citizenship of the student…at least about 90% of medical schools do.
I hope you have a plan B in case you don’t get accepted to medical school at all…like 60% of the applicants (receive zero acceptances). You need a plan B.
Im still not clear why you aren’t pursuing a medical degree in your home country. Nevermind…I saw about your IB program.
Re: your link. It shows roughly 70 medical school students from four years of MS1-MS4 students. That’s not a high percentage of med school students…at all.
I think he meant citizenship among international applicants.
Really sorry, I meant to say for an international applicant; for example, they wouldn’t consider you differently if you were from Brazil or China.
I do have a plan B and unfortunately, because of IB restrictions, I couldn’t complete physics as a prereq for entrance examinations. Plus, the US has a much better hands-on education system to be brutally honest.
The link I shared was just a sample meant to show the diversity in international applicants and show that they all gained US MDs after pursuing a US undergrad. By no means does it oppose the already established truth that admission is incredibly arduous.
What difference does it make how many international students APPLY to medical school? What matters is how many are accepted, and fact is…that number is very very small.
So based on the options he currently has, would you say that he’d be better of going to uoft and applying to Canadian medical schools. Because their acceptances are even lower
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I wasn’t referring to how many international students apply. Just that your place of legal residence outside the US doesnt play a role in securing admissions as an International student. Again, I agree that the acceptance rates are very low.
Believe what you want to believe. When 90% of medical schools or so won’t even review applications from those who aren’t citizens, I would say…this plays a role in securing admissions. This means only 10% of medical schools would consider your application.
I’m glad you understand that getting accepted to medical school here would be challenging.
@RahulV I’m a parent…not a big fan of wasting money.
This student needs to take medical school possibility OFF the table and make a college decision based on the college and what it has to offer BESIDE potential medical school.
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Wasting would be a big word to use as it is still paying for his education and UCLA is still a top school even if he is not matriculating into med school. If he decides to pursue his higher education elsewhere or looks for a job, UCLA can reward him with higher acceptances and a higher starting salary. I would look at it as an investment rather.
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I believe someone in this thread mentioned that 51 out of 172 canadian and US medschools accept international students. Although it’s a small number, I wouldn’t say it amounts to 10% of all medical schools.
Also I mentioned that medicine is what I’m looking at right now, it is subject to change within the next 4 years and I believe both schools can offer what I need regardless of the whole medicine fiasco.
The whole thread has been a litany of reasons not to do MD in the US as an international although there are successful matriculants (a few I know personally).
To reiterate, I created this thread as a means to aid me choose between my choices and I’m all ears to advice on the same.
Going back on your last statement, with that aspect in mind which uni would be the most apt choice?
Thank you so much for all your insight and data. I’ll definitely do some more research with the points you’ve put forward and decide accordingly. I tend to debate a person’s opinion when possible as it gives me the opportunity to learn more and gives me an incentive to research avenues I haven’t heard of.
P.S. I haven’t made my mind up on UCLA.
Where do you want to live for four years? Toronto or LA. Think about all the characteristics of the colleges that made you apply. Pick the one that checks off the most boxes.
Hmm…What would you say are some important factors apart from place of residence?
Variety of majors and ease of switching majors if you so choose.
Ease of getting courses when registering.
Activities outside of academics that might interest you.
Ease of transportation for you to travel home.
Career center…who recruits there (and in your case, do they recruit international students).
Things to do off campus that are accessible and affordable.
Housing…on and off campus.
Weather (your two choices have very different weather).
Check to see internship potentials. You will need to check to see what your limits are in terms of working. As an international student, there will be limits.
Size of classes.
What made you apply to these schools? Make a list of those things too.
Just one more question….did you get off the waitlist at UCLA? If not…you missed the deadline to commit to matriculate. This from their website:
“ All steps must be completed by this deadline: 11:59 p.m. PDT, May 1, 2021 .”
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Here are a couple of your quotes:
Post #5:
UCLA Geffen does not favor its own undergrads in med school admissions and has an acceptance rate of 2.3%.
That’s not true. If you looked at their freshman classes, UCLA is at the top, with between 25-30 {edit: students not percent – square brackets gets me every time} of its class being native baccalaureates with an incrementally higher rate of acceptance in relation to the entirety of applicants, followed by UCB.
Post #5
UCLA is major feeder because it produces more med school applicants than any other single university in the US. Over 1500 UCLA students applied to MD schools last year.
Actually in 2020 the number was 1,152. There has been a slight upper trend in, say, the last five years, but I would guess that that there’s never been 1,500 who’ve applied in a cycle.
In the last year that UCLA SAIRO reported, which was 2019, 52% of UCLA students received acceptances (an applicant receiving ≥ 1 offer). So this should mean that UCLA baccalaureates received the most acceptances of all US colleges – and of course I phrase it this way because being accepted to med school is an individual accomplishment rather than an institutional one.
Both you and the OP, @PranavDhillon , mentioned that UCLA had serious grade inflation:
Post #22:
UCLA is known to have grade deflation too. And the sheer number of UCLA premeds means that pre-med resources like research lab positions and nearby clinical volunteer sites are under heavy pressure.
First, related to your last sentence above, the medical school UCLA Reagan Medical Center is on campus. And surrounding the med school are numerous complexes that have various research groups. And UCLA has a Biomedical Research minor, which any life-science student can attach to his/her major.
Secondly, about your grade inflation statement… Here’s the calculation of Latin Honors at UCLA for 2021-22 – yet future, so grades trend upward incrementally if you compare it to Latin honors for 2020-21. I would think that UCLA’s bio majors in Letters and Science, as well as the trend across the nation would be to have grading on an enabling grading structure, not necessarily “grade inflation,” but certainly not a disabling one, or “grade deflation.”
With the above in mind, here’s a guesstimation of grades by percentile for the top half at UCLA for 2021-22, with 2020-21 right below it:
Summa Cum Laude, 3.956, top 5%
Magna Cum Laude, 3.908, next 5%
Cum Laude, 3.816, next 10%
(This shows a little less than a hundredth grade point decrease for each percentile rank decrease.)
The university undoubtedly has been keeping extremely close tabs on students’ grades by major, by class, by specific yearly cohort. So the graduating class in 2022 will have ~ 20% who graduate with a 3.816 gpa or higher – and they have it down to a fairly exact science based on their calculating gpa to the thousandth. And of course, the college of L&S includes the life and physical sciences, where most of the premeds reside. But I’ve seen Dance majors and World Arts & Cultures who’ve taken the premed coursework at UCLA along with engineering majors, which are in different colleges at the university.
So let’s look at an estimate of things by percentile for L&S:
99th Percentile, 4.000 (I would imagine there would be a decent number of these.)
*95th Percentile, 3.956 (Summa floor)
*90th Percentile, 3.908 (Magna floor)
*80th Percentile 3.816 (Cum Laude floor)
75th Percentile, ~ 3.77
70th Percentile, ~ 3.72
65th Percentile, ~ 3.67
60th Percentile, ~ 3.63
55th Percentile, ~ 3.59
50th Percentile, ~ 3.55
The 3.50-3.75 gpas would be more plentiful than those at 3.75 and above, assuming, of course, a variant of a normal curve. The average at UCLA would be lower than its 3.55 median – it’d be perhaps ~ 3.40-3.45, because the upper half of the class would be tighter in grade distribution than the lower, which would bottom out at 2.20 or so at the 1st percentile. I would guess the 5th percentile would be ~ 2.40.
The essence is that a 3.40-3.45 mean and a 3.55 median is not grade deflation. And again, this is a trend across the nation.
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Interesting stats @firmament2x but this isn’t going to help this international student get accepted easily to a medical school in the United States…even with a UCLA undergrad degree.
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OP’s deciding between University of Toronto and UCLA. I was just correcting the misconceptions that:
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There’s grade deflation at UCLA, because an ascendancy of grades is occurring nationwide;
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There’s a dearth of research opportunities at UCLA;
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UCLA doesn’t take a lot of its undergrads to its med school.
Yeah, I agree with you that the OP won’t be ultimately helped by these, because it’s all on him to have the requisite stats to be admissible to med school, but just to make some corrections.
Edit: And all the best to @PranavDhillon, there’s no any wrong choice in the two. Let me add another edit: there are 178 freshman med students admitted to Geffen, so the typical class will have 14-16%, typically, who did their undergrad at UCLA. UC Davis, as a comparison, accepts about 1/3 of its undergrads to its vet school.
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