<p>“Oh, come now. Yes, it’s a sports league, but it’s not like the colleges in the Ivy League are not distinguished colleges. They’re ranked 1, 1, 3, 4, 8, 10, 15, and 15 in the recent USNews rankings. They have enormous endowments, distinguished faculty, and venerable histories, dating in some cases back to the 17th century. Sure, there are other good schools but it seems just perverse to insist that there is no reason to pay attention to the schools that make up this group.”</p>
<p>No, it’s the singling them out that is so weird. It makes as little sense to “want to go to an Ivy” as it would be to “want to go to a top 20 schools that has a one-syllable name.”. They are simply 8 of the top schools, but they don’t have any special magic that other similar schools don’t have, nor do they offer opportunities appreciably very different from the other schools at that level. The fawning over them on CC as being somehow elevated strikes me as naive and also very limited to wannabe subgroups.</p>
<p>Life learner -first, I rarely drink, my husband never does, and we were in the Greek system, whatever that proves. </p>
<p>Look. You’re concerned that your kid will be around students who like to party hard on the weekends. But said kids are also at college, presumably handling the academics. So why is it so hard to believe some subset of them might have had abuse problems in hs? Smart people are still people - they have vices, weaknesses and addictions just like everyone else.</p>
<p>Not really according to the many Harvard alums I’ve known…whether undergrads or even a few partisan grad alums. </p>
<p>General reaction to the above notions about Harvard students ranges from “Yale’s a dump*, not worth the effort/who cares!” to “Ho hum, boring!”. </p>
<p>On the other hand, I’ve known several Yalies who’d wished they could do something to **** off Harvard students/alums. Are you one of THOSE Yale alums, by any chance?</p>
<ul>
<li>Taken verbatim from one former supervisor.</li>
</ul>
<p>Lifelearner, you read something between the lines that I NEVER intended to say, or imply. </p>
<p>I absolutely DO NOT believe that “someone MUST consume alcohol to meet social norms and fit in”. I don’t know where you got that from because I never said it. It would probably shock you to find out that other than tiny sips of champagne on occasional New Year’s eves, I haven’t touched alcohol in 30 years, and the only time there is alcohol in my house is when a guest brings wine as a gift. </p>
<p>However, I do believe that because many people drink socially, nondrinkers have to learn to accept that and deal with that, both in college and in the work world.</p>
<p>I personally raised my child in a non-drinking and non-drug environment, and expected that she would follow my lead. She didn’t. I did counsel responsible alcohol and drug use, and to avoid driving while drinking. And we certainly had plenty of talks about the dangers of overusing both alcohol and drugs. </p>
<p>You totally misunderstood my point. I never said people have to drink to fit into our culture. I said that we live in a culture where people drink, and everyone needs to figure out how to deal with that. Maybe you live in a different world than I do, but most people I know have wine with dinner, drink beers while watching football games, and join coworkers at bars after work. What I said is that many high school students who swear they don’t drink and will never drink and want a non-partying school go to college and end up drinking. I didn’t say that was a good thing or a bad thing, or that everyone does it – it is, however, something that happens. It’s reality, and that’s all I was doing – drawing a picture of what really happens. </p>
<p>(And my screen name is fireandrain, from the James Taylor song.)</p>
<p>(And I went to Brown and never used pot, and knew plenty of other people who didn’t use pot.)</p>
<p>What really bothers me about the OP is that he seems like one of the introverted people who is severely against alcohol/drug use and then ends up using them heavily once they are really exposed to them. Just keep an open mind. If you find out that you do or don’t like drinking, that’s fine. But why be so adamantly opposed to them now?</p>
<p>And really, I don’t know why this thread isn’t over already. You can find similar people at any medium sized school. Like I said, I go to Vandy, one of the most alcohol-heavy top schools, and I personally know more people who don’t drink than drink. Obviously, that is not representative of the school, but I don’t see how it would be hard to have an experience like mine. The end.</p>
<p>Brian1 - very simply, can you please define what you mean by “intense”? And “grade inflation”? Is Princeton the only school that supposedly has grade “deflation”?</p>
<p>fireandrain - I sincerely apologize if I misunderstood both what you were saying as well as apparently mistyping your username. I meant no harm on either account, and do appreciate your input and your comments.</p>
<p>cobrat, to be clear - neither my intent nor line of questioning when speaking to the Harvard students was really focused on whether they drank or did drugs - I merely and honestly was trying to get a realistic idea of WHAT they did - what social alternatives were either available or popular. They seemed as though they were clearly very bright in their chosen majors, but surprisingly, quite a few of the students either couldn’t articulate what a weekend night was like, or were reluctant to disclose, so should I then assume that EVERY Harvard student gets wasted every weekend? I don’t assume that as I have a hard time believing it’s true. </p>
<p>But just what DO they do there? I mean, do they go off campus a lot? Stay on campus – and do what? Have small room parties? Dances? Play a lot of poker? Do a large % actually STUDY on Saturday night? Is THAT what they really didn’t wish to share? </p>
<p>Are there certain “games” that are popular among the Harvard students as I believe students at MIT may play games like “Mafia” as a popular pastime? (anyone on here wish to substantiate if that is true?)</p>
<p>Oh, by the way, cobrat, my kid was either near me or part of the conversation when I spoke to current students. They weren’t giving my kid any better specifics when they ate together without me in earshot - (my husband and I ate at a table on the other side of the room), but I thought I would try to personally ask to try and gain better insights – but it was like pulling teeth!!</p>
<p>Now that I think about it, a lot of the students I spoke to WERE freshman and were only on campus about 6 months when I visited. Perhaps I should have sought out more upperclassmen…</p>
<p>From Pizzagirl: “Look. You’re concerned that your kid will be around students who like to party hard on the weekends. But said kids are also at college, presumably handling the academics. So why is it so hard to believe some subset of them might have had abuse problems in hs?” Smart people are still people - they have vices, weaknesses and addictions just like everyone else". I just replied but lost it - so quickly, to reply again, I believe it is because I think it is MUCH, MUCH, Exponentially Much harder to get INTO one of the top schools than to be able to handle the work, and even do well, once in the school</p>
<p>I slacked off in high school, got here, and now I have no idea how to deal with this stuff. Whoops. Nope, once you get into a top school, you have to realize how to STAY there.</p>
<p>Lifelearner, I would really encourage you to look more closely at Princeton based on how you described your child. It might fit the bill for what you’re looking for. They do have parties and there obviously is lots of drinking but the students I met were somewhat similar to how you describe your child. I guess the ones that we know are more focused, serious minded, and service oriented, but still liked to have fun and participate in a gazillion things, including trips to NYC and stuff like that.</p>
<p>My son and I stayed on campus on a Thursday night in the dorms (he in a boys dorm and I, mom, in a girls dorm) and we didn’t hear a lot of partying going on. He stayed up with the guys playing wii, so there was a least one freshman dorm that did something else besides drink on a Thursday night. :-)</p>
<p>My son chose MIT over Princeton because, in the end, he decided he desired a STEM school in a large city-MIT fit the bill.</p>
<p>“I would LOVE to get a “genuine answer” of what MOST students at Harvard do on the weekends or Thurs/Friday nights.”
-I do not know anything about Ivy’s. I know that most of my D’s friends, including her had to study very hard on MOST weekends or Thurs/Friday nights at their state public to catch up. Only in senior year, it got lighter in the second sememster after interviews were all done. D. did not have many classes left to take in senior year, so her schedule was lighter and classes were easier. So, she was able to visit bars on campus and I was happy that she finally was breathing a bit in college.<br>
I do not understand why kids / parent think that they will have time. All kids around my D. worked, volunteered, did Research, graduated with combo of amjor(s)/minor(s), traveled abroad, some participated in Greek (very time consuming if you actually participate and not just pay the fee) oh, forgot to mention, they had to maintain very high college GPA and many prepped for Grad. School entrance exam in junior year (D’s prep. classes were actually on Sunday), the last one was taking about 3 - 4 hours every day for many weeks on top of regular classwork.
I believe that many have very skewed impression of what they are going to do on a weekends. Mostly, they will continue with the same as on weekdays and if they work hard enough for 3 years, maybe they will have a bit of free time in their senior year.</p>
<p>What Harvard students do is 100s of different things. The weekend my comp sci son visited he spent Saturday evening watching a sci-fi movie and playing (nerdy) board games. He was very happy to find students like him there, though he ended up going to a place where there was an even bigger concentration of kids like him.</p>
<p>I realize Harvard may have changed, but on any given weekend I might have done one of the following: played fussball or pinball in the dorms, watched a movie on or off campus, gone to a party with drinking and dancing, gone to a play on campus, gone to a music recital on campus, worked on the literary magazine, read a book, go to watch a sports game, gotten exercise, played squash in the basement of my House, developed film in the darkroom in my House, taken a pottery class in my House, gone to a coffeehouse, watched Saturday Night Live, caught up on homework (well never on a Saturday night!) Sunday morning I always did the New York Times Crossword puzzle and on Sunday afternoon I always felt guilty about only just getting started with homework.</p>
<p>And this is exactly what college students at all levels of the selectivity scale do everywhere. Ultimately, people determine what they do - not the campus they are at.</p>
<p>This discussion has hit some points that come up a lot. Here’s my take on a number of them:
Why single out Ivies? The Ivy League is just a sports league, etc…This is partly a holdover from a past time when there really weren’t many other universities that had the same national academic reputation and prestige as the Ivies. Stanford, basically, and most of the others had regional reputation. This has changed. The Ivies are all still part of the class of “highly selective research universities with a national reputation and high prestige,” so they still get used as shorthand for this idea, and some people (mistakenly) think the Ivies are all at the top of the heap. I think people with this misconception should be treated gently–they may be hearing it from parents who learned about colleges when there was more truth to this idea.
Why would anybody want to apply to all the Ivies? Such a person might just be a prestige hound, but he might also be applying to a large number of schools that are highly selective because he wants to go to a university with highly able peers. If that’s his main criterion, he might be perfectly happy going to Columbia or Dartmouth. (My kids had no interest in Dartmouth or Cornell because of the location, but they both were interested in both Brown and Columbia despite profound differences in the structure of education at those schools).
Is Harvard the most intense Ivy? It enrolls the most intense people.
What do Ivy League kids do on the weekend? It’s true that they do pretty much the same things, but there are differences in where they do them. At Columbia, they do it at clubs (using a fake ID), at some schools they do it at the frat house or eating club, and at others they do it in dorm parties. This may make some difference in overall atmosphere.</p>
<p>Really, really, really.<br>
I thought there was a great hint (in fire’s post or another?) that our view of our kids is simply our view. At a certain point, we have to trust that we did the very best we could to guide them, then do a lot of praying (whether one takes that literally or figuratively.)</p>
<p>Imo, it’s time to get off a parent forum and tackle the college specific forums. I see you posted in Princeton’s. Skip all the detail. You don’t want students to match your kid, you want them to reveal something about campus life, right? A few sentences could get some talk started.</p>
<p>If you come on too analytical, too parent-like, they won’t engage.<br>
I skipped posting links to “insider scoops” on where the parties are at Harvard, etc, but you can google. </p>
<p>Get your kid out to as many college visits as you can cram in. Let him see what he likes. Don’t make this so much about how bright he is and how bright these top schools are. 25-35k kids are going to apply, the colleges filter by their own needs, wants and sense of which kids will fit and thrive there. </p>
<p>Go look at lists of clubs, activities, see what you think will engage him. And breathe. Don’t make this feel so complex.</p>
<p>Chaosakita- I love the way you are adjusting to college, how happy you seem, congrats, glad your decision turned out to be right for you.</p>
<p>lifelearner, yes there are kids with substance abuse problems at the Ivies, at the top LACs, and just about everywhere else. Some of these super bright kids survived their crazy schedules in HS because they used drugs. Some got drunk or high on weekends to relieve the stress of the other 6 days. High SAT scores and being active in ECs does not prevent someone from becoming an alcoholic or drug addict. </p>
<p>And when some of these kids get to college, away from the constant activity in high school and the eyes of parents and community members who have known them forever, they totally let loose and enjoy the party life. As I said in my original post – some really smart kids in high school don’t party in HS because the partiers are not in their social or intellectual circle. When they get to college, surrounded by smart kids just like them who drink, their perception of alcohol use --who does it, why they do it, when they do it – changes. </p>
<p>I do agree with many other posters that at many schools, there is no stigma being a nondrinker, nor is there peer pressure to drink. I imagine that can vary within colleges – you could have the bad luck of ending up in the dorm with a lot of heavy drinkers who do exert some pressure, while the dorm across the street just happens to have students who accept nondrinkers with no problem.</p>
<p>I agree with Hunt that there are differences where the students drink. Personally, I always thought it was “safer” to drink on campus, because of the danger involved in getting from the off-campus bar back to the dorm room when you are drunk.</p>
<p>If you amend this to … in the Northeast, there weren’t as many other universities that had the same academic reputation and prestige as the Ivies. Because that’s exactly how I grew up - I get it, in spades, and that’s how I used to think too - but I also get that out here, the Ivies just have never been as exalted as the great, magical Eight as they are back east. But too many people on CC use “reputations in the Northeast” as a substitute for “national reputations.” The same thing with “up-and-coming” - if something has been long established elsewhere, it doesn’t just become “up and coming” the moment someone in the northeast hears about it.</p>