<p>How important is undergraduate research in getting graduate admissions in top schools? Sons current plan is to earn a Ph.D from Stanford (or MIT) in Electrical Engineering starting 09. Therefore, his next four years are a pit stop. If he does not win the admission lottery at Stanford then we have a dilemma. He is admitted to UT (ranked 10 in EE) and Rice (rank 20 something).</p>
<p>At Rice, he was not offered what they call guaranteed undergraduate research scholarship (Houston factor?). Rice does claim that undergraduate research opportunities are available. However, he will be competing with other kids and chances are that he may not get to work in new and exciting fields. Those positions might be taken up by the kids who are guaranteed those spots.</p>
<p>At UT he will be a protégée. Last year, a kid with similar background had a several calls from the Dean promising him mentorship, and first pick at the research opportunities. </p>
<p>I would like to know if it is better to have a pit stop in a state school with more choice options or in a small school where choice options may not be secured. In addition, how important is the research experience in getting graduate admissions at the top schools?</p>
<p>Was he accepted into Plan II? If so, that's great and he will have a fine experience at UT. Rice has lots of opportunities including lots of research opp's and funding for student and prof led research. (That's where that 3billion-dollar endowment comes in handy!) The Rice education is a liberal-arts ed due to the distribution requirements, also. I'm a biased Mom, because my DD attends Rice, but I think both choices sound fine. However, the living/learning/growing experience of the schools are very different. Rice is very res-college centered, and UT is...well, UT. I would encourage him to attend the admitted-student days (Owl Weekend at Rice, ? at UT) and decide where he feels like he will grow and enjoy himself the most. Although right now it sounds like you and he have his whole life mapped out, it is important to realize that students change their minds about what they want to do with their lives frequently, and that college is not just about the end goal, but the whole process.
Again, both choices are great - but ease off a little on the "goal down the road", and focus more on the path at hand. College should not be a "pit stop" on the way. JMHO.</p>
<p>Simba, if your son goes to Stanford for UG, you have to research whether they would want you for graduate studies as well. As others have pointed out, some great schools will not take their own students for graduate studies for some valid reasons of their own...which I don't know myself but there are some reasons.</p>
<p>Research is critically important to graduate admissions in PhD programs-more so than GPA or GRE scores. Most applicants to top PhD programs will have good grades and test scores-the research experience and recommdentations will be what distinguishes some students from others. That said, I'd investigate carefully the research opportunities at both.</p>
<p>Phampson: Your posts (this one and I read others by you) are very insightful. Do you have any thought on achat's posts that often top name schools don't prefer their own UGs?</p>
<p>Anxiousmom: Yes he is admitted to Plan II. S is very goal driven. In 8th grade he had mapped out his high school course schedule and he stuck to it (knowing fully that that would hurt him in his class rank).</p>
<p>Then I don't see how you could go wrong with either choice - both will give him superb research opportunities. Again, though, have him visit both for admitted student days, and focus on how it feels. Usually kids end up having a pretty defined preference after spending some time on location.</p>
<p>The original reason for the bias against some schools taking their own undergraduate students for graduate work had to do with the belief that studying within the same department with the same faculty would not be as rewarding or professionaly enhancing for the student. Students who were able to study with a wider variety of professors in their field not only would be exposed to more varied perspectives, but would also be able to make many more contacts within the academic world. Whether these original reasons are still valid is probably debatable. However, by the time your child is ready to go to graduate school, he should pick a graduate program where he can pursue his particular interests rather than a specific university.</p>
<p>I have not heard anything about Stanford not accepting their own undergrads for grad work. My son is a senior there applying for a fifth year program in engineering, and he has heard nothing about such a policy.</p>
<p>Fifth year programs are somewhat different. I do know that top schools encourage their students to apply elsewhere for graduate schools for the reasons expressed by Mo/10e.</p>
<p>I know I'm not a parent, but I do have some insight into research opps at rice.
If you want to do research, you most certainly can. It's really not hard at all to get involved in research, even as a freshman. I don't know that much about UT, to be perfectly honest, so it's hard for me to say which might be better, but I really think that the research opps at rice shouldn't be too big of an issue. If your son is interested, he might start contacting profs in EE (or another department) at rice now, to see what kind of opps their labs would offer him. </p>
<p>I wonder what makes Stanford a better choice than these, beyond the name and gorgeous campus...I love stanford a lot, but I can't imagine that the research opps will be very good...</p>
<p>Simba: Thank you for the kind words. As for schools not accepting their own undergraduates, sometimes (primarily for PhD programs) that is the case. The reason is what mol said: professors think students should be exposed to a variety of perspectives. Again, contacts are extremely important in academia, and by moving to a different department you meet more scholars. If you stay at the same school for your BA, MA, and PhD, you'd have been studying at the same school for probably almost 9-10 years. That said, I do think there is value in attending a top school for undergrad. You have a wider margin for error in your GPA-a grad school would most likely admit someone w/ a lower GPA from Rice than from UT. Something else to consider is the access you will have at each school to professors. Having well known professors write stellar letters of recommendation is another way to set you apart from the other students w/ high GPAs/test scores.</p>
<p>I think you have to look at the overall quality of the school. Your son may decide he doesn't want to get the PhD after all; he may find another subject more appealing... Does he want to stay in Texas? Then, going to a Texas university may meet his needs. </p>
<p>I would also think about where your son will be able to excel. Getting into graduate school at MIT or Stanford requires an excellent CV.</p>
<p>Marite: Is that really true? I think your H teaches at M or H, and is that the current thinking in those schools?</p>
<p>Jenskate1: Thanks for the information. We have more than two months to investigate. And what makes Stanford better? You tell me. You know the thread on Rice board - why Rice is under-rated?</p>
<p>Do you have any thought on achat's posts that often top name schools don't prefer their own UGs?</p>
<p>Some schools try to refrain from "inbreeding" by only accepting a only a small number of their own undergraduates into their graduate programs. Just like going through the process now even as graduate students they want to build diverse classes</p>
<p>Simba, I think that it is too early for your son to be thinking about which PhD program he might want to enroll in for a number of reasons. However, before I get into the reasons let me weigh in on undergrad research. It is strongly encouraged for most students but particularly for those seriously considering grad school. All student advisors in my department(civil/env engineering) encourage the better students to enroll in the senior thesis course for full credit both semesters senior year. During spring semester junior year we meet with those students who have enrolled to discuss their areas of interest, offer research project suggestions, consider department resources which might be available, and direct them to literature sources which may be helpful. During the summer we expect them to prepare a research proposal which will be reviewed with their research advisor and where appropriate, submitted to the office of undergrad research for research funding of up to $4000. We also begin working out details such as availability of lab space/specialized equipment, equipment/material/supplies purchases, weekly advising times, etc. For appropriate students we consider spring conferences where they might be able to at least poster board their research findings.</p>
<p>Regarding grad school and in particular those special student considering PhD programs, I have personally not heard of a policy where univeristies discourage undergrad students from admission. But PhD programs are very different from undergraduate or masters programs. First, students applying for PhD programs should have very specific academic interests in mind. Second, PhD degrees usually take a mininum of 5 years so funding is a big consideration. Finally, the best students do not need to find the best ranked department, they need to find the the best researcher or research group in their area of study. This later consideration is rarely their undergrad department and it is not necessarily at MIT or Stanford either.</p>
<p>The reason this last consideration is so important is that the PhD students success will often hinge on the qualities of their PhD advisor. The best will be well funded by research grants and this will fund his PhD students. He will have the best lab facilities at his disposal, a good thing for his PhD students too. Most will also be head at least one research group in the department or university giving PhD students the opportunity to participate in other departmental research. The best PhD students will be listed as co-authors on several other published research papers in addition to their dissertation research. That counts for a lot post-grad time. Finally working with the best is usually the best both academically and for post grad appointments. The classwork is incidental to the blood, sweat and tears of PhD research. He will form a lasting relationship with his PhD advisor, for good or for bad. The ultimate success of PhD research often hinges on the relationship with this person. The best in their specialty are highly respected and will have a network of colleagues around the world. Their recommendation is priceless. So if that person is at MIT, great! Apply to MIT. But if that person is at Purdue, Illinois or any other university, that is were your son should be. Your son knows that he wants to pursue a PhD in EE. But EE has many sub-specialties and he will not know which he would want to devote his life to until he knows more about them. And until he knows, he cannot decide who he wants to study with. And the who will determine the where.</p>
<p>originaloog: Thank you for a very informative post. Is research important only for senior year or should it start before? Our confusion arises from the fact that at Rice the Century scholars are guaranteed research opportinities for 2-4 years.</p>
<p>originaloog: As a lurker on this thread, I also greatly appreciated your post. Looking forward to reading your response to simba's last qx. Carrying her qx further:</p>
<p>What is the importance of college-level research for EE/CE underegrad who might be headed more toward work followed by grad school and maybe more likely MSEE (not PhD)? I think our family had previously thought that research opportunities at college would be icing-on-the-cake, but is it something that is (nearly a) necessity? If so, how early does it need to start?</p>