<p>Good points, Creekland!</p>
<p>With your ACT score, you would be eligible to apply for the Munro Scholarship(Full tuition) at Eastern Nazarene College. It is small, outside of Boston, and a really nice school.</p>
<p>In light of this article … were I considering Liberty U., I’d run as fast as I could in the other direction. Thanks for sharing.</p>
<p>[Liberty</a> University’s net assets headed for $1 billion, thanks to online - Richmond Times-Dispatch: News, Crime And Politics For The Richmond Metro Area: p, news, state_regional,](<a href=“http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/liberty-university-s-net-assets-headed-for-billion-thanks-to/article_a65b5604-745e-5d13-98f0-f1ed2eb6dd8d.html]Liberty”>http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/liberty-university-s-net-assets-headed-for-billion-thanks-to/article_a65b5604-745e-5d13-98f0-f1ed2eb6dd8d.html)</p>
<p>Whistle Pig, you and I are definitely different. I see nothing but positive in the article you linked.</p>
<p>Liberty is investing in new buildings and better academic programs as well as salting away $$ for the future.</p>
<p>They are financially sound.</p>
<p>They are treating students like customers.</p>
<p>They are keeping tuition affordable.</p>
<p>Perhaps you’re not happy because they never address their Christian mission? If so, that doesn’t bug me. It’s a “finance” article - it’s supposed to deal with their finances. Having good finances as a school certainly isn’t a negative for me.</p>
<p>Perhaps you’re not happy because they offer a bit online? That doesn’t bug me either. To each their own when it comes to getting an education. They aren’t discontinuing their campus.</p>
<p>I’m stymied. I kind of expected to hear they were getting their funds by supporting a casino or something of similar negative character for a Christian college…</p>
<p>I was bummed to see their medical school is going to be a DO school, but such is life. It hardly rates as a “run as fast as I could in the other direction” comment.</p>
<p>Perhaps you could list schools that are financially unstable and choose to do nothing about it as places you suggest running toward?</p>
<p>As a non-profit with a good track record I think LU’s online business is less vulnerable than all the 4 profits and many of the non-profits just trying to get into that area. LU knows how to do it and does it well–online students are treated more like regular campus students and invited to participate in campus events as they wish. As a non-tenure school if there is any decline in online they can cut expenses to match instantly. With minimal infrastructure there is little to lose and much to make in the online business.</p>
<p>Yes, I’m confused, WP. Can you explain your response?</p>
<p>Not dissing Liberty’s business plan. Nor does it make any sense to try and educate fine people about the dynamics of funding growth using debt instruments and tuition dollars. Perhaps a read of Elon University’s history might be a good start. George Keller is the author. Or look at the spectacular growth of University of Phoenix. </p>
<p>But what clearly takes no education or genius to grasp about the situation is that as Liberty pursues this fast-growth strategy where “money can’t be spent fast enough” what is obvious is that Liberty is no longer the same institution it once was. It is essentially an on-line tail wagging a large, getting larger resident component. It ain’t what it used to be. For some, that’s great news. For others that means a dramatic change in the nature of how “business” gets done and what drives the show. </p>
<p>No desire to engage Creekland. She means well, but is in over her head on this one, imo, in failing to recognize the old adages including “no free lunch” and “if it looks to good to be true, it is.” Time will expose it all.</p>
<p>I think some debt is fine and when your total debt is less than your annual net cash flow you really are using too much risk. They have nearly $1Billion in unrestricted net assets. Until the recent borrowing they were debt free thanks to a large insurance policy on JFsr. While they are growing the online biz fast the campus growth was slowed to a moderate pace to improve student quality and have the campus catchup to the enrollment including more dorms a new library and other academic facilities. As long as there is an excess supply of PhDs they can pay low rates and charge low tuition and still make net cash flow.</p>
<p>barrons might do well in Washington these days, where debt is in vogue. (It’s merely just an “allocation” problem, not spending beyond our means, of course.) </p>
<p>Who knows if Liberty can pull this off. Perhaps they can. I’d place no bets on them. History exposes boondoggles like theirs. Oral Roberts had some of the same notions, before its flop. Now it looks like a left-over base for the Jetsons with a space needle and med school deadern a door nail. And like Oral, Jerry’s crossed the bar to his eternal Home. Personality driven places are tough to sustain, at least in the vision of their founders. And they both had ambitious, wanna-succeed-daddy sons. Richard succumbed to the temptations of Lucipher. Let’s see how Falwell’s ambitious off-sprung does. He’s figured out a momentary cash cow, for sure. The real problem will come when these new programs will require major influxes of cash to operate and sustain, all in the absence of any real endowment and the need to borrow monies at increased debt service. It will all depend upon the institution’s ability to continue to grow as that’s the only source of revenue. btw, anyone’s wowed by a very generous $29 million life insurance policy isn’t much in tune with the finances of higher education. </p>
<p>Time will tell who had the clearer picture here. Where there’s money, there’s fire. We’ll see. Ol’ Satan loves scenarios like this one.</p>
<p>More specific to the OP’s needs though, @ over $30k/year, while it’s cheaper than many secular competitors, it’s still $30k/year. And anyone ever doing a FAFSA form knows that can be challenging in aiding even those in need of aid. And what we know by the numbers, Liberty is becoming one monolithic monster of an institution where the 80,000 on-liners are essentially funding 12,000 on-campus students to the tune of a 25:1 student faculty ratio. (And there’s the real key to how Liberty has done its magic so far.) Very high student-faculty ratios while remunerating a modest faculty (in terms of credentials) very modestly, and using TONS of part-timers on a per course basis. It’s a tough formula to sustain, especially when the message is Christian relationship and quality education. Safe to say, it’s not Wheaton or Pepperdine or Taylor or a whole bunch of other Christian colleges. Falwell, Jr. would apparently see that as a good thing.</p>
<p>A few latent thoughts re: Liberty …</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Trying to play D-I athletics is expensive, especially absent a big-time drawing football program. Huge suck on the budget.</p></li>
<li><p>Endowment per student is miniscule. Among the lowest in the nation. Jerry Jr. acknowledges this as a big problem in trying to fund operations and scholarships.</p></li>
<li><p>The retention rate is terrible. 77% after frosh year.</p></li>
<li><p>More notably, the 6 year graduation rate is in the 47 % range. This is particularly important because FA doesn’t continue beyond 4 years and when tuition is accounted for for 5, 6, 7 years … well, the total cost becomes shall we say, “highly competitive.”</p></li>
<li><p>While I’m no fan of tenure, LU has none. And all that means is that top-notch faculty won’t go there for less pay, less security, teaching large classes, and many of them, advising loads that are very high. Yes, some will see it as a “mission” of sorts. </p></li>
<li><p>Huge number of part-timers and adjuncts. Simply teaching classes, but not an integral part of the faculty and community usually.</p></li>
<li><p>Only 68% report having terminal degrees. So much for barron’s contention of "cheap Ph.D.s, as many of them have none. Those who do, are not the creme of the crop.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>What’s all this mean? Who knows beyond be assured that LU is playing by a different set of rules than most Christian colleges and U’s. Those who are there or products there of will contest, all is well in Mudville. Those who aren’t might look at it with a more discerning eye.</p>
<p>WP - where are you getting your stats? Collegeboard gives them an 81% freshman retention and 52% graduation rate. While those aren’t great numbers, I’d like you to give us better numbers from any other similar college in size (11,000+) and incoming fresh stats (20 - 26 ACT midrange). They seem “usual” for those stats to me. Colleges that take in more lower stat students often end up with those who really aren’t prepared for college and they decide that once there. When I compare them to Bloomsburg (a PA state college with similar numbers), Bloomsburg has a 78% FR and 64% GR - not really super different esp if you consider Bloomsburg has a much lower cost.</p>
<p>I still consider them a decent college for their niche - which isn’t likely to be the OP due to size.</p>
<p>Time will tell on the finances. You’re right, there’s no reason to engage. I have no problems with their working to get better and provide more while keeping costs the same.</p>
<p>Some from their website. Some from U.S. News, which they self-report. Whether it’s 52% or 47% in 6 years that is notably poor, and especially w/in the context of the type of school they portend, don’t you think. I do. And isn’t that one of the real bottom lines? And as for liking that to Bloomsburg, which is awful in terms of retention … the DIFFERENCE is not 12 - 15 % … it means that poor old Bloomsburg, one of 14 ho-hum former state teachers colleges where anyone and everyone can and must go often because of cost and state mandate, is acutally as much as 36% more likely to graduate than at Liberty. THAT is pathetic. </p>
<p>And in terms of cost it drives it up, knowing that it is not feasible to transfer to the local community college for those non-FA years.</p>
<p>As for assuming</p>
<p>Ok thanks guys!</p>
<p>Personally I am not very interested in Liberty University because of its size.
I have looked most of the colleges that were suggested:</p>
<p>Not interested and reason:
Wheaton Too expensive
Berea No TESOL
Taylor Too expensive/not enough scholarships
Cedarville Not enough financial aid
Covenant No TESOL
Palm Beach Atlantic Not very many scholarships
Liberty U. Too big
Eastern No TESOL and pretty expensive
Central College Too expensive and not enough scholarship money
Waldorf Not Christian</p>
<p>The ones that I am looking into more are:
- Grove City College TESOL?
- Geneva TESOL? They might have ESL
- Jamestown College TESOL?
- Eastern Nazarene TESOL?
- Azusa Pacific
- Northland International- I am still considering it because of a discussion that I had with one of their admission counselors who explained their view on the statement that I was having trouble accepting.
These all have scholarships that I either automatically quailfy for or have the ability to apply for in order to bring them to a cost that I can afford.</p>
<p>Does anyone have any personal experience with Simpson University in Redding, California?</p>
<p>Chesney - did you look at Union in TN (not the one in NY)? I don’t know if they have the programs you are looking for, but the do offer merit aid and had very satisfied students back when we were looking at colleges for oldest.</p>
<p>As a parent, one thing I would be cautious about with Northland is whether or not they are regionally accredited. I tried to look up their stats on collegeboard and they don’t provide anything, but they’re listed as accredited by Transnational Association of Christian schools. I’m not sure if you could have trouble getting a position later with a degree from there. It’s worth checking into (where have recent graduates gotten jobs?). Perhaps others reading would know.</p>
<p>WP - Bloomsburg’s stats are very similar to Liberty’s as is their size. It’s why I compared the two as they tend to appeal to the same caliber of incoming student. I’m not getting how you’re doing your math when you say that a student is 36% more likely to graduate from Bloomsburg. According to collegeboard the stats are 52%/64%. My math has the difference at 12%. Digging deeper I would wonder how many non-traditional students each has and such things. The stats are for on-campus students only, not online, so perhaps there isn’t much of a difference. Who knows?</p>
<p>You appear to have disdain for both places. I know decent graduates from both - very happily employed and proud of their Alma maters. Our school sends students off to each every year. There are many, many decent colleges out there for many niches of student. Not all have great stats.</p>
<p>Buildings indeed add to assets. They detract from FA, especially when there is virtually no endowment/student. They’ve discovered a new “magic”, it seems. Furthermore, the more one builds, the more that must be operated and maintained, as any, all who’ve ever owned one home know well. Virginia has NO regard for anything. It’s merely a state. If they were as cash-flush as they claim to be, why would they be borrowing big-time debt? And why would they be rated anything beyond a top risk? </p>
<p>Sorry, that I refuse to buy the PR news releases that LU is passing out.</p>
<p>What seems to be fairly accurate is that they’ve created a monster cash-cow at the literal expense of 80,000 on-line students who somehow perceive their computer and the information they receive on it as a “Christian U.” U.Phoenix has excellent on-line learning … accounting, history, soc, stats, math, etc. I’d be interested to know how LU’s on-line statistics or even the Old Testament is more Christian than Phoenix’s. Penn State has a world campus, a euphemism for computerized, on-line learning. And they are about exactly the same size now as Liberty. We live in an interesting world.</p>
<p>Not down on LU, just not buying the PR spin they’re selling. When it seems too good to be true, it always is. As I’m confident we all might agree (at least on this thread), there was only one “lunch” that was and is truly free to us, paid for by the death of God Himself. Ours for the receiving.</p>
<p>And when we’ve got unidentified, uncredible and/or at least unvalidated folks recycling the company business pitch absent any real analysis, the “caution alarm” goes off big-time. Why are they working to persuade based on seemingly unfounded, contradictory information? Now we all understand and appreciate the youthful, usually non-analytical enthusiasm of students cheering their alma mater and yearning to persuade others that their choice was simply “the best” for them and now for you. Doesn’t mean it really is; rather simply that they must do what we all do … re-sell ourselves that the car or home or education we bought was the best possible purchase. It’s a natural phenomenon and need we have. There was only one who promised and delivered.</p>
<p>What none have shared and I’m hopeful they might … is how is LU a Christian college to those 80,000 students they’re milking for money. Beyond enabling their feeling that somehow their distance learning is superior to Phoenix or Penn State or any of the many myriad of institutions now seeing this same formula that Junior Falwell’s rightly noted as a source of monumental quick cash. Like state lotteries, Indian reservations, Atlantic City, powerball, etc. … all promising to bail out senior citizens or pre-school children, they all soon cannibalize each other. And what none talk about in the case of these 80,000 students is that on-line learning is substantially passive learning, unengaging, which has long been recognized as a useful, cheap way of conveying information, but a terrible way to educate especially youthful, immature undergrads. So why do it, we might ask? Simple. It’s dirt cheap to deliver, even if it’s a monumentally poor way to educate and transform young minds.</p>
<p>Creekland, I did look into Union, and they have the programs that I am looking for. It is in my considering list, which seems to continue to grow. Do you happen to know if they give very many Full tuition/Full Ride/ 75% Tuition Scholarships? I didn’t find a specific number or amount.</p>
<p>I don’t know that Chesney. I know my guy got a merit award from them (basic one), then was invited to a scholarship weekend to compete for their high level scholarships. You should be invited to that as they had a minimum of 31 on the ACT to get an invite. My guy had a sufficient offer/package from Covenant before the scholarship and really preferred Covenant due to their Community/International Development major and profs, so we just ended our “search” once his #1 choice was affordable.</p>
<p>WP - ok, so it’s the online aspect you’re not happy with. That doesn’t bug me. Many see it as the future. Personally, I’m glad my guys are all getting to go to brick and mortar colleges before online becomes the “normal” way, but Liberty being ahead of the curve on that doesn’t bug me in the least. Online provides a service to those who want it. Many do. I’m glad they have a Christian option instead of just Phoenix (for profit) or others.</p>
<p>FTR, I’ve been following the trend of online education from places like Thomas Edison. So far, it’s a good deal for those needing basic or advanced degrees just to check a box that they have them (folks already on the job needing a degree to move on), but I don’t recommend them to undergrads fresh out of high school. I haven’t seen where job opportunities are equal at that point, but my info is all just based upon what I see and hear from acquaintances, etc. I do wonder when, and if, that will change in the future.</p>
<p>Online also works for high school students looking to do DE classes.</p>
<p>You borrow because money is so cheap right now to do so and to do otherwise would be financially stupid. You can lock into LT funds at around 3-4%. If you earn 15% COC return your leverage is terrific. They are borrowing to pay for LT assets that will improve the on campus product and attract more students likely to stay and graduate–not funding current expenses like some better known colleges. Smart and conservative. The debt rating is excellent for a newer school without a large endowment. Second highest possible.</p>
<p>LUs grad rates and retention are quite normal for schools with students in this stat range. Compares to something like Kent State in OH or most any decent second tier public U (not the worst ones)
Graduation, Retention and Transfer Rates:
•First Year Student Retention (full-time students): 75%
•4-Year Graduation Rate: 26%
•6-Year Graduation Rate: 50%
Most schools at this level do not get the “creme of the crop” in faculty. But at least those at LU are dedicated to teaching over research and as a still developing school you will see those numbers improve as areas requiring separate academic approvals like engineering are grown. And I think they are more than typical of most Christian colleges in that regard. How many adjuncts do they use at NYU? LOTS.</p>