<p>Baloney. Sorta like we hear from the IRS and WH.</p>
<p>I don’t think they would mess with official IRS reports and the credit rating agencies. The IRS returns are there for you to examine. </p>
<p><a href=“http://990s.foundationcenter.org/990_pdf_archive/540/540946734/540946734_201106_990.pdf[/url]”>http://990s.foundationcenter.org/990_pdf_archive/540/540946734/540946734_201106_990.pdf</a></p>
<p>Visited Oklahoma Christian and University of Central Oklahoma, and I could tell the difference between a large public University and a small Christian University. OC was very personal and friendly. Regular students would say hello as we were walking around campus, and the admission counselors were very friendly and helpful (ours was named Daniel). At UCO, however, while the tour guide was friendly, it felt like I was still a number. It was a good experience though, because I got to experience two different types of schools and was reassured that I am making the right choice to be looking for a small Christian school.</p>
<p>Chesney,</p>
<p>Okla. Christian looks interesting because they have a gaming and animation major, which my middle son might be interested in. They also have a National Merit Scholarship. I’m curious, though, how they are theologically and how liberal their liberal arts classes are. Any ideas?</p>
<p>I have heard great things about Okla Christian from my grandparents who say it is pretty conservative</p>
<p>sbjdorlo,
From my visit, they were pretty sound in their teaching. I will say that all of their teachers are Church of Christ members so there is a big influence from the denomination. However, they are open to students who do not believe everything exactly as they do, and they are willing to talk about it in class. There is a big emphasis on community and unity. Students have chapel at least 4 times a week and can only miss around 15 chapels each semester. The campus is really pretty and is pretty close to both downtown OKC and Edmond. I am not sure how liberal their liberal arts are, but I do know that they have quite a few majors, and according to my counselor at school, universities that have alot of majors tend to not be as pure of a liberal arts school. It is, I believe, a liberal arts school in the sense that Christian beliefs and values penetrate all of the majors and classes. Another thing that I really respected was that while in a meeting with a Bible professor, he did point out the fact that the campus is not perfect and there are people who are not Christians even if they profess that they are. (This is going to be pretty much everywhere)</p>
<p>Our discussion on the possibilities and problems of Liberty U no doubt merit their own thread. Especially in light of the complexity and nuance of debt financing, a subject totally foreign even to most professors and virtually all students, current and in-waiting.</p>
<p>And the only reason it has become a sub-topic in this thread is in considering Liberty U., one of the major collegiate consumers of borrowed money with massive debt and recently down-graded debt rating by Moody’s and S & P. (see the last article.)</p>
<p>One writer contends, “No problem, lots of cash flow coming from the growing number of on-line students.” I’ve cautioned, “Careful, careful.” Debt is a bad thing, especially when we learn that LU’s debt is not “cheap money” as has been suggested. </p>
<p>So no need to beat this more beyond providiing just a few of the myriad of articles that are being written about THE MAJOR PROBLEM facing higher education … student and thus institutional debt. And LU has determined to go way out on the limb.</p>
<p>But … let’s remember this. The fundamental issue for Liberty is operating as a Christian institution. As such, students and others interested must realize that all the construction of the institution is to benefit who? Right. Resident students who pay over $30,000/year for R&B, tuition, fees, books, personal expenses. Probably closer to $35K. Lower than many but still notably expensive. </p>
<p>Especially when one considers the tuition of on-line students, the vast bulk of the nearly 100,000 LU tuition paying students. </p>
<p>But here’s the MORAL rubs … and there are really 2 major issues.</p>
<ol>
<li>Who pays for the facilities that are the reason for the monster debt? Right! The rapidly escalating number of On-line students, who benefit nil from them.<br></li>
</ol>
<p>Now before one begins to contend, “Yea, but look at how low the tuition is for them,” consider that it would be much much LOWER were they not strapped with paying for student unions, athletic facilities, med and engineering schools (btw … these won’t be available to on-line students, will they), dormitories with all the amenities, etc. </p>
<ol>
<li>And the second rub is simply this … shouldn’t resident students paying $20K/year in tuition be outraged that they are paying 3 times as much for the very same course credits as the on-line students. </li>
</ol>
<p>And IF LU contends “Well, these aren’t the ‘same credits’ or course content as the on-campus students get”, now there’s a real problem. </p>
<p>Yes, LU has contrived a fascinating financial model of building a large-college campus on the backs of on-line students. Most fortunately don’t and won’t ponder the issues and real “costs” of incurring huge amounts of debt when there is nothing to back it up beyond a huge on-line cash-cow. Here’s that it will work. Only time will tell if LU can sustain its growth and retain its students. As we’ve seen already, retention rates are extremely poor for a private Christian university. Not so bad if being compared to the local community college or as one noted, a public teachers college/comp school. Apples and oranges, tho.</p>
<p>So let’s watch with great interest. Unlike some others from Lynchburg in the discussion, I’ve no skin in this game beyond interest in the Liberty debt experiment. What we can be sure of is that it’s not a free lunch. And be sure the lenders will be watching even more closely, knowing that Liberty has virtually no endowment/student to pay the bill if it sours. And guess who WILL bear that burden, should it come? Right … future LU students.</p>
<p>Btw, anyone know the average student debt of LU students?</p>
<p><a href=“Colleges Begin to Confront Higher Costs and Students’ Debt - The New York Times”>Colleges Begin to Confront Higher Costs and Students’ Debt - The New York Times;
<p><a href=“Colleges’ Debt Falls on Students After Construction Binges - The New York Times”>Colleges’ Debt Falls on Students After Construction Binges - The New York Times;
<p>[Falwell?s</a> Liberty University Doubles Debt Selling $100 Million to Expand - Bloomberg](<a href=“Bloomberg - Are you a robot?”>Bloomberg - Are you a robot?)</p>
<p>The annual paymenrt on the debt os only $15M or about 7% of trailing cash flow.
Your claim of poor retention is just false. It is well within the bounds of any similar school. It is very close to the two other major private colleges in town-Randolph College and Lynchburg College. All the campus enhancements are being done to improve the campus envirnoment which they admit was subpar.
With their extremely low cost structure and net tuition (many FT students get significant grant aid or other discounts) they have plenty of room before high net tuition is a major issue. Also they offer many programs not available at publics related to religious training and have added high demand secular programs in teaching, nursing and med tech, aviation, business, comp sci and engineering. Not a private LAC facing serious program demand issues.</p>
<p>Their endowment is hardly nothing. It is well over $50 million up from just $7 million two years before…</p>
<p>Their debt has not been downgraded. </p>
<p>Taking a course live in person versus an online class are hardly comparable experiences. And the costs reflect that. Apps for in person admission have increased significantly over 5 years allowing LU to be far more selective than in the past.</p>
<p><a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/liberty-university-10392[/url]”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/liberty-university-10392</a></p>
<p>“In May 2012, Liberty University Chancellor and President Jerry Falwell Jr announced that the school’s net assets are worth $1 billion, in part from the success of its online learning program and from accelerated facility expansion.[72] In December 2010, Liberty sold $120 million in facilities bonds, with the proceeds to be used to finance future expansion.[108] An additional $100 million in taxable bonds were sold in January 2012, with the proceeds used to help finance $225.2 million of planned capital projects around the campus over the next five years.[109] The bond offering is part of Liberty University’s campus transformation plan[14] which will include several renovations and additions to academic buildings and student housing, as well as fund the new Jerry Falwell Library and formation of a medical school. The bonds received ratings of “AA” and “A1” from Standard & Poor’s and Moody’s Investors Service, respectively” WIKI</p>
<p>I was fully confident you’d respond. </p>
<p>Mind sharing what your “skin” might be in the Liberty game? You’re a loyal advocate, for sure.</p>
<p>On the debt downgrade, you need to read a little more carefully.</p>
<p>And your candor noting that 3 credits of the same course are NOT equivalent to 3 credits on campus. Are on-liners informed of such? Can you point us to that confession and clarification? </p>
<p>What you’re suggesting is that there are in fact TWO Liberty U’s. Right? Resident vs. On-Line. Is that noted on the diploma and transcripts? How so? </p>
<p>Will on-liners have access to the Health Sciences and DO med school? How about engineering? Are there other programs unavailable to on-line students.</p>
<p>Do on-line students get one-on-one, personal advising? By whom? How does that happen? Do on-line profs receive same benefits package as resident? Or are they paper graders? Who develops and approves the syllabi? </p>
<p>Do on-line students have same access to athletic and EC activities? </p>
<p>This is very interesting and your apparent 1st hand knowledge lends real insight. Looking ahead to your inputs. Perhaps we should copy and start a new thread</p>
<p>btw, on the endowment, you totally missed the measure. The only thing that really counts on endowment … PER STUDENT. $50 million for 100,000 students is a pittance. It’s the equivalent of $5million for a student body of 10,000. Or $500,000 for a college of 1,000 students. Now, when you add in the presence of a med school, engineering school, law school, etc.? You’re talking about pocket change! Sorry, that one fails all the tests of quality and stability.</p>
<p>But WP, I agree with Barrons on the point of live vs. online classes.</p>
<p>My son is a student at MIT. MITex and MIT OCW are <em>wonderful</em> ways for people to get the same content as the in person MIT classes and my son himself did some self study of Python using OCW.</p>
<p>But, there’s nothing like being on campus with the other students, interacting with professors, and just being in that culture. God has been <em>so</em> gracious! My son has a wonderful Christian network, great non-Christian friends, and it’s been a really positive experience thus far. The on campus experience is worth all the extra money. (Ok, in full disclosure, my son gets a boatload of need-based aid and has a hefty National Merit yearly scholarship, so our out of pockets costs this year were under 3K, but we know MIT will expect our son to pay more for his college each year from employment)</p>
<p>My only skin in the deal ia the economic outlook for Lynchburg where I will retire.I spent an off year there and met many LU students and some admins. Thought they were nice people. Would I go there–probablt only for sporting events and plays etc. I attended UW Madison which is at the other end of the spectrum in many ways. Done with school.</p>
<p>I read it carefully and it says nothing of the sort about credit downgrade. They face challenges–all colleges do. LU may have limited appeal. Of course that very fact also makes it very appealing to some. It’s not for everyone for sure. But that have moderated significantly over the years, esp since JF died. They have gone from somewhat extreme to tacitly endorsing the Romney to the chagrin of some of the more extreme christians.</p>
<p>Everyone with a brain knows there is different experience taking online v classroom on campus classes. But for many people online works. No wasted time driving to a campus, parking etc. No schedules to mesh. You can work when the kids are in bed in your PJs. You can get the same material either way but I prefer in person by far. If they can cover similar material in both manners I do not believe the dilpoma should be any different and doubt that it is.(online FAQs says same diploma)</p>
<p>I doubt that online will offer med school as there is too much hands on work. Looking at the online catalog all the programs are those suitable to online–no lab sciences, engineering, medical practice etc. Mostly business, education, law enforcement, religion, pschology.</p>
<p>[Online</a> Bachelor’s Degree Programs | Liberty University Online](<a href=“http://www.liberty.edu/online/degrees/bachelors/]Online”>Bachelors Degree Online Programs | Liberty University)</p>
<p>Online profs may be regular faculty or adjuncts as probably is the case at most online programs.</p>
<p>They have answers to most of your Q’s online–of course.</p>
<p>[Prospective</a> Students - FAQs | Liberty University Online](<a href=“http://www.liberty.edu/online/prospective-students/faqs/]Prospective”>Prospective Online Students FAQs - Liberty University Online)</p>
<p>We are in FULL agreement that passive, on-line learning is NOT the equivalent of engaged, interactive learning. That’s no secret. Tons of research supporting yours and my claim on that. </p>
<p>My questions are directed at learning how this differential is communicated, accounted for, reported.</p>
<p>In other words … student records, diploma, communicated to students, who generates the course information, what is the status, responsibilities, and relationship of those instructors, etc.</p>
<p>What is the truth in lending, so to speak. As you and I and barrons all agree … the on-line is not at all equivalent to the residential experience. How is that noted officially and in terms of what students are “buying.” One thing we might anticipate … MIT on-line would not be determined the academic equivalent of MIT on-campus. And I’d speculate that both the profs and students on-campus would demand people knowing they’re different. Does Liberty? </p>
<p>What is troubling is that it wants to tout “we’re big” … until one starts to use genuine qualitative measures to examine that. Such as endowment/student. </p>
<p>How do on-line students gain access to library resources @ LU? What about special programs and events. Advising is a BIG deal, especially to distance-learning students. </p>
<p>So, as we all note, LU’s is a very unique financial model. And it seems like there are many big-time winners and big-time losers in this. They’re banking on the reality that not many will ask tough questions that cannot be broad-brushed. </p>
<p>Most often, we get what we pay for. This postures as a big-time ponzi model that will work … as long as on-liners keep funding the not-cheap, totally unproductive debt service. Remember, unlike you and me, Liberty gets no tax benefit from debt interest. </p>
<p>And barron keeps throwing up “assets.” That’s simply a balance-sheet euphemism for bricks, mortar, real estate. Nothing that will fund debt. Only create it. And that’s why Moody’s and S&P are walking VERY cautiously, watching this carefully. They know if the on-line cash-cow begins to dry up or even slow down in its growth, it’s big trouble. Why? Because unlike the bank coming to take my home for re-sale when I default on my mortgage, there is no market for an unaccredited med or law school building. They’re stuck! </p>
<p>As I’ve noted, no skin in this, and I wonder about barron’s. Doesn’t necessarily diminish what he/she says, but it does lend some perspective. We all know the story of “me thinks thou doest protest too much.” So knowing that in this specific case, would lend some insight to who’s saying what. </p>
<p>So let’s see if there are any full, clear, transparent answers might be forthcoming. Especially knowing that Liberty has a greater responsibility, a higher calling to its mission and operations. Can’t get away with some of the shenanigans MIT or Michigan might. And let’s hope this is God’s calling and plan, and not man’s scheme for “using” tens of thousands wanting what they believe and hope others will perceive as a Liberty diploma when in fact it is merely that of Liberty On-Line Universtiy, something far, far different than Liberty University, as you, barrons, and I all agree. </p>
<p>This is about representing Christ, isn’t it?</p>
<p>And as for the issue of fueling the local Lynchburg economy, no doubt this has been a monster for the locals. It’s the “marcellus shale” of southcentral VA. So well barrons should be concerned. Because the boom could quickly go bust. All it takes is a downturn in the on-line market (and it well could as students figure they could get a similar on-line education, even better for less, from a Wisconsin or Penn State or … as others jump into this distance learning biz that Phoenix has exposed to Liberty and others.) So THAT skin is indeed worth worrying about. It’s a no-brainer that a Penn State accounting degree trumps an on-line Liberty degree. Why? Every accounting firm on the planet loves Badgers and Nittany Lions, where they can hire 20 or 30 top auditor-trainees for the price of one at Liberty. What about education? Soc? etc. Once the Christ-centered experience is removed from the equation, it’s all … dare we say … academic.</p>
<p>This thread should probbably be closed as the conversatioin has nothing to do with finding an inexpensive christian college</p>
<p>Well, not really. In fact it is right on in helping astute readers to determine the critical issues to consider in looking at the “price tags” vs. the real cost of colleges. Most are mostly naive and totally ignorant of this issue, as is apparent in looking at average student debt among today’s recent college grads, no matter what type institution they’ve attended. In fact, these issues have much to do with finding both low price tag and high value institutions. The first part’s easy. The second confounds many.</p>
<p>If you take a closer look at that balance sheet you will see around $400 M in CASH. That’s a pretty hefty cushion for now. I certainly agree there could be new competition in the online game. But the market is also growing. The real reason they fired the UVa President last summer was the UVa BOV knew about LU and how much cash the online programs were generating while UVa was scrambling to find new money sources. </p>
<p>If you look at some of their online info they have a nice graphic that shows how much an LU online degree costs versus other major players online.</p>
<p>[Compare</a> Us | Liberty University Online](<a href=“http://www.liberty.edu/online/compare-us/]Compare”>Compare Us - Liberty University 100% Online Education)</p>
<p>I have no idea how much other major U’s will try to get into the online space. I’m sure some will but the price competition is pretty strong and I’m not sure if the states will provide much subsidy. They are already having a tough time funding the brick schools.</p>
<p>Jumping back to the OP for a moment, thanks for your comments on Okla. Christian. I’ll look into it some more.</p>
<p>And I’ve found the conversation between barrons and WP interesting, though I confess I don’t understand much of what they’re saying.</p>
<p>I sort of understand, It is like GDP and Revune and Profits only for colleges And how ethical LU is</p>
<p>A final thought on the Liberty U. debt scenario …</p>
<p>Think of it simply. Just like the financial scenario that got us all into big financial trouble. </p>
<p>Through Freddie and Fannie Mae, “cheap money” was made available for lending to people who had decent incomes but no real cash nest egg or other valuable liquid assets to use as back up or collateral. These people readily took that “cheap money” and figuring they could make the monthly payments, went and bought big houses. Everyone was happy. Those who lent the money were collecting interest. Those who built the houses were paid for their labor. Those who’d provided the lumber and bricks and concrete wer happy as clams, selling lots of product. And most of all, those who’d dreamed of owning that beautiful new home, were now living in that dream. Everyone was happy! 
</p>
<p>But dark clouds loomed for all those happy people. You see, there was no problem as long as they were employed, the big salary was paying the monthly mortgage (loan) bill. But one day, when business slowed down, the employer of that home owner came to him and told him, “Sorry Joe, but we’re not selling as many GM cars and I’m gonna have to lay you off. You won’t be making that big money, but you’ll be getting 99 weeks of unemployment, so you and your family can at least eat with the food stamps.” </p>
<p>Well, the problem for Joe was now he had no savings (endowment in U. terms) and no cash flow (the $$ coming in from on-line students), and so Joe had to move into a trailer. And all of a sudden the bank was the owner of not only Joe’s as they reclaimed something they did not want, they also owned Bill’s and Andy’s and Juan’s and Willie’s homes because they worked in that same GM Volt plant that was now shut down. </p>
<p>It created an awful mess, with financial dominoes falling all over the place.</p>
<p>And that is the great risk for Liberty. Except for this. The bank can’t “claim” a college campus. So what happens? Well, a whole bunch of things, as that college or U. is forced to pay the debt service from now dwindling cash flows. So programs get cut. Faculty are fired and given lower salaries. Maintenance is “deferred”, a fancy name for simply not repairing and repainting. The med school stands as a partially finished shell … or worse, goes unaccredited as the docs and high-end profs all go elsewhere. </p>
<p>And most of all, the institution’s reputation … all a campus really has in the end … is sullied as the place tanks.</p>
<p>Now … this is a bleak scenario that few could imagine. Not likely, right? That’s exactly what Joe and Bill and Willie and Juan and their bankers and the builders all thought. </p>
<p>So what has to happen and happen and happen for Liberty’s boom to keep from going bust? </p>
<p>Simple … it must continue to attract growing (not merely the same number they currently have) numbers of ON-LINE students who won’t add to the campus costs (beyond faculty salaries) but who will pay for all that construction and addition. </p>
<p>And everyone will be happy and Liberty will continue to become the monolith of Lynchburg. </p>
<p>IF …</p>
<p>So what are the threats? Why would that on-line NOT continue to grow? </p>
<p>Simple, it’s a business model generating huge amounts of cash, and the barrier to entry is not monumental, as we see from Liberty itself. There is lots of competition, and promises to be more. And much of that will be from similarly Christian campuses who are strapped for cash and see the solution.</p>
<p>Furthermore … where did Liberty come from? Right! The vision and charismatic leadership of one man, who is now dead and gone. And Junior Falwell, much as he might hope and pray, is not Jerry Sr. Big time danger in personality-driven institutions. </p>
<p>Now, when might this happen? Who knows. Maybe never. That’s what ORU thought too as they went thru these same gyrations. Or Taylor U in buying a Ft. Wayne campus (now closed.) </p>
<p>One more very real threat to the whole house of cards … what REALLY differentiates Christian on-line accounting or English lit or sociology or communications or … from secular courses of the same? Got me. Not saying they’re not decent courses at LU, but what makes them any diff from a Michigan or Penn State or Phoenix or …</p>
<p>One thing so far. They’re cheap! They are the low-cost provider … so far. But what happens to profit margins and windfalls as competition enters in? If you don’t know, I’d offer this illustration simply … the lottery. Remember when Las Vegas was the only place to gamble and find an overt lady-of-the-night? (Ok, the latter is for a different thread.
) Then Atlantic City got into the gambling biz. Everyone was happy. Then Illinois started a lottery. And Pennsylvania. And then we got the Powerball, a national game of chance. And today … literally every 7-11 and mom-and-pop gas station will gladly sell you a lottery ticket or a quick-pick. And Las Vegas has gone in the tank. And Atlantic City is struggling. And the Native Americans are struggling with their casinos. Too much competition cannibalizing the good times for the Liberty U’s of the gambling set. :(</p>
<p>So … will this happen for LU? Who knows. Hopefully not. But that’s all there is here. Hope. While LU aspires to train brain surgeons, it doesn’t require one to figure out that LU’s Junior Falwell has put the U. in a very interesting, potentially very precarious position by digging a monumental monetary hole. 
</p>
<p>Lastly … where do most colleges and U’s get their endowment, those cash reserves that save their bacon when the pork gets lean? From alumni, corporations, friends. My guess is LU has lots of friends. Alumni are mostly young, mostly unattached beyond diploma (on-line), mostly in professions that do not lead to personal wealth. Not a great scenario for raising private philanthropic money. Not many corporations dying to hire their engineers or accountants over those from MIT or GA Tech or Michigan State or Rose Hulman or even Grove City. Lynchburg and the region has little or no major industry to speak of. The lone possibility in this bail-out bunch are “friends”, i.e. those who are devoted to Thomas Road and/or the memory of Jerry Sr.
</p>
<p>And if you’ve read this far, you’re a better woman than I am! :eek:</p>
<p>That was interesting Whistle. I learned quite a bit (1 including that you are a woman!)</p>
<p>Finally (WhEW!) … As the NY Times piece noted about this debt issue, if Harvard U, with literally multi-BILLIONS in endowment (and “gazillions” more in “assets”) has all kinds of red flags on institutional and consequently, student debt, then Liberty ought to be concerned as well.</p>
<p>And let’s hope Junior can keep his pants on, too. :eek:That’s managed to kill more than one college dream.</p>
<p>kypduron … you don’t think a man could provide such an astute analysis, do you? ;)</p>