Even so… is that appropriate? Why could the teacher not just say “sorry I’m late” with no further details? It would obviously lead to many questions by students who might otherwise have been unaware of the issue. OP said
unclear if “everyone” knows who is involved, but shaming as a school policy should have gone out a half century ago.
So the lawyer I spoke to say they’ve dealt with that program before and found it to be not quite as accurate as educators would like you to believe. He went into detail and technical stuff but that was the jist of it.
Yes the teacher should have just told the class sorry she was late. She admitted she stated that to her class and apologized to us about it. She didn’t mention names. Not her fault kids gossip and try to find out who it is. We will show grace to her because she is human.
Turnitin is a tool that flags potential plagiarism so that teachers can then further review the papers. Yes, Turnitin does sometimes detect plagiarism when students use the same quotes and that is when the teacher’s or the OP’s own eyes are useful. I wouldn’t want to pay an attorney to argue that Turnitin isn’t accurate when the teachers have already recognized the similarities.
I agree. The argument that Turnitin might flag something innocent is not relevant here, and I have heard the copying needs to be fairly substantial. Certainly some discretion is used by teachers in interpreting but it sounds like the friend did copy.
I have asked a few people and everyone thinks the friend recorded the conversation. That would be an argument that the policies have not kept up with technology and that your daughter could not anticipate direct copying.
I hope the lawyer isn’t missing the crucial points: 1) intent 2) harsh consequences 3) inadequate education on academic honesty (esp. with virtual learning, collaboration and COVID). Did you give the lawyer these points>? There is no point arguing that your daughter didn’t do what she did. You can guide the lawyer, you don’t have to follow!
Have you or your attorney examined the policies at other schools regarding “lending” one’s work product to another ? Any differences may assist your daughter’s efforts.
Was your daughter punished for “plagiarism” (it is clear that the other student was), or was she punished for “lending” her completed work to another in an effort "to give unauthorized assistance on any form of work completed for credit " ?
You can message me and I’d be happy to discuss (so long as you are respectful lol) but I have gotten the feedback needed and won’t be engaging. I appreciate everyone’s help tremendously!
Glad you are moving on to real life solutions and best wishes for a good outcome.
Actually, the copying does not need to be substantial unless the program has been improved in recent years.
When I looked at a report a few years ago it was flagging common phrases/ways 70% of people would write something and common knowledge facts such as “Person X was born in City Y” or “Germany is a country in Europe” that were in the paper and somewhere on some internet site or if 3-4 common word string out of 15 word paraphrased sentence was the same and adding all that together to get it’s score. Once all that type of stuff was excluded there really wasn’t anything left, yet paper had been flagged and student accused.
So unless the program has improved it may have flagged things that were not actually shared (in addition to what was shared and intended as an example) but that the students independently wrote similar enough given both essays were about the same book and prompt. So, it may appear the copying was more extensive than it technically was, which factors into interpretation of was student just trying to help friend understand the assignment (by providing a couple “here’s an example of what this part of rubric is looking for”) vs “lending” her work.
In either case it sounds like OP has what she needs at this point.
I’m hoping the lawyer is able to get the school to restore her original grade, with no report of academic dishonesty, and that will be the end of it, for your daughter. Please come back and let us know the outcome, when it’s all over. Best of luck. Keep on telling your daughter that sometimes bad things happen to good people, and that she should not let it sour her, or turn her cynical.
I’ve just read to this point, so maybe this has already been said, but I would get an attorney involved.
I get concerned that there is no real path to resolution for this matter. Sounds like there was some collusion here that may or may not have been the fault of your daughter. Hard to prove one way or the other.
The problem I see with vigorously pursuing this is that the school will not give your daughter the benefit of doubt from here on out. You’re making a potential enemy where you need a friend.
In college, I took a professor to task for scheduling some class periods during the “dinner hour” that was spelled out in the student handbook as a time that no classes were to be held. I was playing on a division 3 varsity sports team and we practiced during the dinner hour. The committee that reviewed my complaint ignored the handbook and sided with the professor. I tried, I lost. I could have lived with it but it did make the professor upset with me. I did miss 2 of those dinner hour classes out of the 8 or so that were held during that time slot. There were about 25 other class periods during normal class time, and I didn’t miss any of those. From my homework, quizes and exams, I had a very solid “A”. My final grade for the class was a “C”. The professor said it was my lack of “class participation” that brought my grade down. I am not shy and am always involved in the class discussions. So, he had the last laugh in all this.
Teachers talk and support one another. My advice is to tread lightly and consider the risk verses the reward.
One other point: A “C” in one class when all the rest of the grades are good will have only a very slight impact (and maybe none at all) on college admissions. And, if necessary, you have a good explanation for that specific grade.
It may seem like a big deal now, but her grades from here on out will be more important than that one “C”.
I think the issue is not the C but the disciplinary mark placed on her record. I agree the C can be addressed.
I may have missed it…will a disciplinary note be on the student’s transcript?
My understanding from the above is one has been placed already that they are trying to get removed.
Some things are worth the fight even though odds for success are very low. In this matter, OP’s daughter has a notation on her academic transcript regarding academic dishonesty. Almost assuredly, this notation will have an adverse effect on college admissions chances.
It appears that there has been a clear violation of cheating (lending one’s completed work prior to the due date to another who has not done the work) resulting in subsequent plagiarism by the other student.
While you & I agree that proceeding with caution & respect for the faculty and the administrators, OP has hired an attorney who will lead the way in deciding how to proceed.
While the note in the transcript will have a negative effect, an explanation in her college transcript will lessen the impact to a great degree. She was naive and did not realize that simply discussing their assignment would cause a violation.
Given that she is a sophomore and keeping her nose clean the test of the way through high school would also lessen the impact.
What is the school policy regarding reporting honor violations on transcripts?
I didn’t say not to use a lawyer, just tread lightly. Maybe what you ask for is the violation be removed from her transcript at some future point if she doesn’t have any further violations.
There are different ways to use a lawyer, including only meeting for guidance all the way to the lawyer handling everything. No matter how the lawyer is used, the family should remain calm and friendly with the school and not make this about anger. I think the family is doing a good job with that. It is crucial that the daughter understand what she did was wrong, even if she did not realize it at the time.
Schools are conscious of precedent and equal application of rules. I think the best argument here is that the school needs to update policies to cover new technologies and habits, an increase in collaborative learning (versus sage on the stage), and the effects of virtual learning and COVID. When policies were written, I don’t think students were hanging out on Facetime while doing homework and “lending” no doubt referred to hard copy at the time. It needs to be articulated clearly and specifically.
The school board could see this as less of a violation of policy and more as an impetus to update, which might allow everyone to save face. This is why lawyer involvement can be seen as a constructive effort rather than an adversarial one. The end result could benefit everyone, not just the daughter.
Sorta random question - if a lawyer is hired in a situation like this or some other type of school-related issue, does it become “known” among the staff/administrators? Could a student be “labeled” (for lack of a better word) for the rest of their career at the school?