Need help with safety school list

Parents Forum
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<ul>
<li><p>Vandy does seem to put a lot into scores, since their average SAT is right around Stanford’s. That said, Vandy is not a true safety for anyone (reiterating that point…).</p></li>
<li><p>Seconding Sally’s recommendation of Lawrence U in Appleton. Strong academics and music. Top-60 LAC but probably a slam dunk for your son.</p></li>
<li><p>St. Olaf has nice music too.</p></li>
<li><p>A school similar to Lawrence, but better, is Oberlin.</p></li>
</ul>

<p>So – </p>

<p>Match: Oberlin
Low match: St. Olaf
Safety: Lawrence</p>

<p>There you have three good LACs in case your son decides to go in that direction – smaller class sizes, more prof interaction, etc.</p>

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<p>This is really helpful. So we will consider Vanderbilt a “hopeful” safety but not a true safety. I would like him to pick one or two true safeties to add to the list, just in case the odds are not in his favor.</p>

<p>So, I am hearing lots of votes for Rochester. Any chance for merit aid there?</p>

<p>I am starting to think that if we need to pick two real safeties that he may not totally love, maybe we should stick to ones where he is also very likely to get some aid. We know aid won’t happen from the ivies and Vanderbilt would be a long shot, but we are willing to figure out how to pay for those if he gets in. </p>

<p>He has agreed to look at Rutgers (in state) which would be safe and free. But he doesn’t really want to go there, so I need at least one other. Maybe I should look at the National Merit list again? Does anyone know off hand of those that give big packages that are also strong in STEM and music? Arizona State?</p>

<p>Also, while Michigan is on our list as a hopeful saftey also, I am not sure it is the best “fit”, if only because it does not really resemble Yale or Duke which are among is top choices. It is a much bigger, big 10 feel. But, they are so strong in all of his areas of interest, and my husband and I met there, so we have a bias towards loving it! If that ended up being his best option, I am sure he would be fine there. But, for additional safeties I am hoping to find something more mid-sized - unless they offer great merit aid. Then, it would make sense to compromise on school size. </p>

<p>Also, one of the only schools we visited that he did not like was Swarthmore. It was just too small for him - much smaller than his HS. So, while I like the ideas of Bucknell, Lafayette, etc. they might be a bit small. I suppose if there was big merit aid there too, we would visit and see what he thinks! For example, at Swarthmore, even though they are considered strong in music among the sister LACs, they have trouble filling seats in some instruments. We met with a music professor there - very nice - but my son thought it was not as robust as some of the others. </p>

<p>Thanks again! I love that these boards exist - sometimes you get much better and more honest feedback than from your local friends.</p>

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<p>Haven’t read this whole thread but, just in case Tulane hasn’t been mentioned…I’d bet they would be all over your son and likely give him a lot of merit aid. It is a mid-sized university (more like Yale than Michigan) with a lovely campus and the safe area of New Orleans right at your doorstep. The key would be that he would really have to show interest by applying early action and visiting the campus, which is extremely important to them, especially when it comes to high-stat kids. I have a child there and there is a cachet to the place beyond what its various “rankings” might suggest because of the location. Going to school in New Orleans is such a distinct and special experience it would definitely enrich his life. Plus, the academics ARE rigorous. He will definitely find kids at his level. I don’t know about the music department specifically but there is plenty going on musically in the city. </p>

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<p>To clarify about Tulane: I’m suggesting he apply EA to maximize the odds that he would receive significant merit aid. But that won’t be possible if he plans to apply EA to Yale. If he applies RD to Tulane he should definitely apply early in the year and visit–to improve his chances for merit aid.</p>

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<p>Why does he not like Rutgers? I realize that it is popular among NJ residents to look down on Rutgers, but, from an outsider standpoint, it seems like a perfectly good state flagship school.</p>

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<p>What exactly are your financial considerations? You mention that you “would figure out a way to pay for ivies or Vandy.” Can you afford 60K plus?</p>

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<p>Interest in “science and engineering” is mentioned as a major, but I do not think some of the previous suggestions are institutions that have a school of engineering.</p>

<p>IU-Bloomington does have hard science majors, but it does not have a school of engineering, if that is important.</p>

<p>If you are willing to go as far away from NJ as Nashville, I am not sure why Northwestern has not been mentioned as it has strong programs in engineering and music and is the same type of selective school listed in your other top choices.</p>

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<p>Northwestern is not a safety- therefore it has not been mentioned. The OP doesn’t need help with finding more reaches which are strong in both engineering and music.</p>

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<p>Students “can” take lessons with Eastman faculty IF the faculty has room in their schedule. Music majors come first. So, it is not guaranteed. In addition, the music ensembles at Eastman are for music majors.</p>

<p>BUT U Rochester has good ensembles as well.</p>

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<p>I thought NW was considered a safety to the Ivies and Stanford. </p>

<p>How safe can you get to the point that “wants an ivy/similar type of environment in terms of the student body. He wants to be among academic peers and not be an “honors” student like in HS” would seem to make many safety school choices, such as the public flagships a non-starter.</p>

<p>OP son’s stats are top notch and I think that admissions for engineering/science majors can be a bit more formulaic than the perceived crap shoot for a liberal arts admission for the ultra selective ivy schools. Although being within driving distance is desired, it may be an advantage to apply to some of the top schools that are looking for geographic diversity.</p>

<p>If NW is not a safety, I guess I am also just curious why NW was not considered as a reach.</p>

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<p>Illini, a safety is a school to which a student is just about guaranteed acceptance. NW could very well be a match for this student…one where he will likely get accepted, but not for sure. </p>

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<p>^You are missing the point. A safety is a school where you are 100% SURE YOU WILL GET IN. Not a “hopeful safety” like the OP used to describe Vanderbilt. Not Northwestern compared to Ivies and Stanford (and I’d argue that NU is harder to get into than several of the Ivies). A safety is not going to fit all of a kid’s criteria in most cases. But it’s a sure thing. </p>

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<p>Thanks again - let me try to respond to the last few posts.</p>

<p>Tulane - will definitely take a look. It is the right size and in a cool location but I am not familiar with the offerings. Also, he could apply early, but would not want to do EA. I am not sure if we can swing a visit this summer. </p>

<p>Rutgers - it is pretty close by and a lot of kids from our HS go there. They also have a sort of atypical campus set-up that does not seem cohesive. Some high stats kids go too, and take advantage of the Presidential scholarship and the honors program. He has always said he doesn’t want to go somewhere where he would have to be in an honors program to be with similar students. He has been doing that for 12 years and is really hoping to be more “average” in college. But, as we face this “safety” dilemma, we will go take a look and see what he thinks. We know lots of adults that went there who loved it. I’d love to find another safety that he is more interested in!</p>

<p>Northwestern: This is a school that we have considered (not as a safety). The reason it is not on our list is that their website says that their top music ensembles are for music majors only. I don’t recall exactly what other ensembles they have, but it gave my son the feeling of being a 2nd class musician if he doesn’t do the double degree program. Also, with respect to it being a safety, it’s a school with unpredicable results here and they seem to care about showing interest (or have that reputation). A friend’s son who was admitted to Princeton, Duke, and Cornell was rejected from NW. </p>

<p>Science and Engineering is important. He is doing a one-week engineering program over the summer so hopefully that will help him know more about which way to go. For now, I am trying to stick with schools that offer both options.</p>

<p>Regarding costs, we have been told that we will not qualify for need-based aid. However, this is based on some unique circumstances and does not actually reflect the reality of our ability. It’s too complicated to discuss here. So, there is always a chance, but we are not counting on it. But, we do have a college fund and some ability to pay $30-$40, approximately (or full for two years). To make up the difference, if our income does not improve in two years (self-employed), I will go back to work. I have been looking to do this anyway, so the timing just makes sense. As I said, we have told him we will figure something out. So, merit aid would be awesome and welcome!</p>

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<p>Musicmom…you need to check every single college if your kiddo wants to play in the music department top ensembles. At schools with conservatory type music programs within the university, this is often not possible. </p>

<p>You mentioned Boston University at one point. They top ensembles are reserved for music majors only. BU does have an orchestra, and band, and pep band for non-majors, and they are quite good. But the BU Symphony is not open to non-majors.</p>

<p>Our daughter had a similar criteria. She is an oboe and English horn player. She wanted to continue playing her instruments in the college orchestra and continue to take instrument lessons…but not as a music major. I will tell you…this was THE hardest criteria for her to fulfill in her college search. She corresponded and spoke to the music department chair, orchestra director and instrument teachers at EACH college she considered. In many cases, the answer was a simple NO. In some cases, ensembles were “open” to non-majors, but it was clear that majors were given preference. And in some cases, the university orchestra was open to all. </p>

<p>DD went to Santa Clara university. She was an engineering/biology major. She played in their orchestra and took lessons for all four years. The orchestra wasn’t like the BSO, but she enjoyed it.</p>

<p>I would suggest your student contact the above mentioned music folks. They were very helpful to us…and I would think they will be easily able to tell you what opportunities are available for non-majors in music at their schools.</p>

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<p>

Definitely a chance for merit aid. On their website they provide some “profiles” of accomplishments that might be associated with various levels of merit aid. Your son would definitely fit into one of the higher profile groups. </p>

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<p>That criterion of his pretty much prevents him from having a safety that he likes. A 100% sure thing for admissions will generally be a school where the student is near the top of the range, rather than where the student is in the middle of the range.</p>

<p>You may want to ask him if he would rather go to Rutgers (perhaps on the big scholarship and in the honors program) or another actual safety, or not apply to any safeties at all and start at community college if he gets shut out of every school on his application list.</p>

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<p>The University of Miami may fit everything except for driving distance. It has strong science programs, well respected Frost School of Music and chance for merit aid. You would have to check on offerings for non-music majors.</p>

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<p>thumper - yes, great advice! We have been trying to do that at every school we visit. If there is a teacher on staff, he has tried to arrange a sample lesson. If not, we have tried to meet with someone from the department. We will definitely continue to do this, and if not, do as you say and just call/email to ask questions. You are correct about BU - he dropped it for that reason. I had been reading the music major board for a while last year when he was still undecided about majoring, and the advice seemed to be that schools with conservatory-type programs tend to be difficult places for kids like my son - they have the abilities, but they are not putting in the hours of practice that the majors are, and in many cases are not even eligible to audition for certain groups. But, my son breaths music, so it is really important to be among other musicians and be able to play at a reasonably high level and take private lessons. </p>

<p>To the others, you are also right, of course. By definition a true safety is not going to be a perfect match for all of his criteria. But, I guess I am trying to present him with some options that sort of “feel” like his top choices, even though they are less competitive admission-wise. It will involve some compromises, but I always hear that a school is not really a safety if the kid doesn’t like it. So, I was looking at other mid-sized schools rather than the big state schools. Rochester is a good choice, if he is ok with not having access to the Eastman groups. Schools like Lehigh look good on paper, but everyone says it is a major party school and not likely to have the right sort of vibe. Tulane might be a good choice also. It is a bit farther than ideal, but we can live with that if necessary. It’s really ME that wants him a little closer, mostly for logistics and travel costs, but my son and my husband are ok with distance. I will look at Miami as well.</p>

<p>Anyone know about the schools that give big aid to National Merit Finalists? I will check that thread as well, but the list is sort of overwhelming and if he is going to end up at a big state school, it would need to be strong in Eng. and Music. As someone early in the thread said, it is easier to get excited about a safety if it is not costing us a fortune!</p>

<p>To usbalumnus - he will definitely apply to 1 or 2 true safeties! I think if there is something that he really likes about the school - location, music, special program, etc. then he can get himself excited about it he ends up needing it. I read on some thread about having more than one safety, so that if the student is disappointed with their outcomes, they will at least have some choice in the end. So, we hope for the best but plan for the worst! </p>

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<p>Musicmom…I sent you a PM.</p>

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<p>What about Union College in upstate NY? They have an engineering school. I just looked up their music program, and they do offer a degree in music, although I have no idea how strong the department is. I think Union is one of those schools that is stronger academically than its admit rate would suggest. And I believe that they offer close to a full (or maybe it is a full) scholarship for students with stats like your son’s.</p>