<p>Not exactly, considering how different the two schools are in terms of institutional values and student body mentality. Many students offered admission to Harvard are rejected by Williams. The applicant pools of these schools are largely similar in power and potential.</p>
<p>“Williams is the community” succinctly captures how rural and out-of-the-way Williams is. Williams is more “jocky” than Haverford because it’s in the NESCAC. However, Williams is more ethnically and socio-economically diverse than Haverford, so one is hard-pressed to call one “preppy” and not the other.</p>
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<p>Isolated, yes. Small? No way, go to university. As an Amherst student, I felt Williams’ campus size and organization were relatively overwhelming–though, that has its own perks, given the common criticism of Williams’ location.</p>
<p>For me, Haverford was too small, disconcertingly so. Academically, it’s an amazing place to spend four years, with the Bi-College Consortium with Bryn Mawr–only 5-10 minutes away. Philly itself is only 10-20 minutes away. I admired the respect and strict adherence Fords have for the Honor Code. It really helps create an environment of trust and comfort, though, ultimately, I imagine one would be in for a rude shock once one emerges from such a Utopian bubble.</p>
<p>Both are superior colleges worth visiting and experiencing first hand.</p>
<p>momrath, neither is my #1 choice. Which is not saying much because I have no real #1 school. I ask about these two schools because they recently started recruiting me and I sent in applications to both since I didn’t have to pay any fees. I just wanted to learn more about them.</p>
<p>Both fine schools, of course.
Personally I was bothered by Haverford’s honor code. The academic honor code is similar to those found at other colleges. But Haverford seems to make a point of extending it behaviorally. Students are under obligation to report their fellow students for behavior violations or face discipline themselves, and there are student judicial boards. It all seemed a little “Brave New World” to me- more than a little creepy. I’m guessing my response may be a little idiosyncratic on this, but there it is.
Easy access to Bryn Mawr and Philadelphia are pluses that Williams lacks.
Williams isolation and natural environment has its own appeal, and the student body is very strong.
But try to visit both schools in session. I don’t see them as overlaps at all.</p>
<p>I don’t think your reaction is at all idiosyncratic. In fact, I think it’s quite common. Others, including my D, find the Honor Code one of the most appealing aspects of life at Haverford. I think a lot depends upon whether your basic orientation is individualistic or communitarian; the individualists tend to hate it, the communitarians tend to embrace it. </p>
<p>Haverford students don’t see the Honor Code as an instrument of institutional control over individual behavior. Instead they see it as an expression of and a vehicle for student self-governance—a joint commitment by the students themselves to live out shared ideals of mutual respect, personal integrity, and ethical behavior, values deeply rooted in Haverford’s Quaker history. The Honor Code isn’t imposed on students by the administration, nor is it enforced by the administration. It’s entirely the create of the students, binding upon them only if ratified by consensus annually—which it always has been. But it’s also frequently amended, again entirely at the initiative of the students who have sole control over its content and even its continued existence. But because it exists, and because the students take it seriously and try to live up to its norms and values (NOT detailed rules), it actually frees the students from many of the usual forms of institutional monitoring and institutional discipline you find at other institutions. It creates an enormous space for democratic self-governance by the students. But it is communitarian, no doubt, and not everyone is comfortable with that kind of commitment to community. That’s pretty much what determines whether Haverford is a good fit or not.</p>
<p>D1 crossed both these off as she was anti-athletic, not a problem for you fortunately. Visited only Haverford, seemed really small (but nice), students very stressed, big emphasis on this Honor code seemed peculiar.</p>
<p>Suggest look at the registrar’s list of courses actually given at each college last semester (not courses merely listed in the catalogs, which may not be given lots of times), and count the number of courses actually given last semester at each school, in areas of likely interest to you. Then count the number of faculty on staff in each area of interest. </p>
<p>Limitations on # sections offered of each class, or courses given only every other year, if that frequently, impact the likelihood of not taking/ learning something you may decide, down the road, that you want to learn.</p>
<p>Schools that are part of readily-accessed consortia are helped a bit by really feasible cross-registration. ie Haverford- Bryn Mawr.</p>
<p>The effective/ combined male-female ratio of Haverford + Bryn Mawr is something like 30-70 IIRC.</p>
<p>Back in my day these two schools both had premier reputations, since then for some reason Haverford has slipped just a teeny notch or two, though still great. Interesteddad said it was due to some financial thing due to an ill-timed expansion years ago, I’ve no idea.</p>
<p>monydad- Agree that “back in the day” you simply couldn’t do better than Haverford or Bryn Mawr. I grew up in the area and they were considered more elite than Penn!</p>
<p>"…research universities have grown exponentially over the years. "
[ in relative selectivity/ esteem] True, of a number of of them anyway.Penn, and Columbia included.</p>
<p>“It’s not that Haverford and Bryn Mawr have slipped.”</p>
<p>Actually, it is that they have slipped, relatively. </p>
<p>Several years ago I concocted a weighted “laissez faire” type ranking of relative selectivity, based on circa 1971 data, with both standalone and university LACs on the same database. My analysis showed that,at that time, Haverford was #9 nationally in overall selectivity, and Bryn Mawr # 21.</p>
<p>Haverford was moe selective than: Wesleyan, Harvey Mudd, Williams, Middlebury. (as well as most of the Ivy league).
Both of them were more selective than: Oberlin, Bowdoin, Pomona, Wellesley, Vassar, Smith, Reed, Colby, Carleton. (As well as Penn.)</p>
<p>I wouldn’t say Penn was a “nightmare”. Both my parents and my sister are Penn grads and it served them well. It wasn’t ranked No. 4, but who cared? We didn’t have US News as the Bible by which to judge colleges. Williams wasn’t even on the radar at my high school.</p>
<p>"I wouldn’t say Penn was a “nightmare”. "
Neither would I. It was a desirable presitigious school back then as well, just somewhat less so than currently.</p>
<p>momrath, I think I did understand your point. I think you’ve way overstated the distinctions. At the ed of the day, Haverford and Williams are more similar than they are different (athough they are different). In other words I think they are overlaps.</p>
<p>That said, I would agree with you that a different set of competitors could be developed (we both listed 4). But if we both expanded the list to (say 10) we might see more overlap, and I, at least, would include Williams on that list.</p>
<p>I agree that “nightmare” is a bit strong, but Penn’s reputation was very different back in the 1970’s. It was on the radar screen at my high school, but no one went to Penn. Now it’s hot!</p>
The settings are very different. Haverford is in an affluent older suburb, with the Big City near at hand. Williams is in a small village, which has little apart from the College and the Clark Art Museum, but which is surrounded by scenic mountains and forests. </p>
<p>The 2008-09 Common Data Set puts Williams undergraduate enrollment at 2,045 and Haverford enrollment at only 1,169. However, the Haverford community feels bigger than that, given the ties to Bryn Mawr, which is only a mile or so away. </p>
<p>Both schools are relatively well endowed, but Williams is significantly wealthier, and can better afford luxuries like 2-student tutorials.</p>
<p>The social environment at Haverford is affected by gender imbalance. Based on the CDS, Williams undergraduates are evenly split between male and female students. Haverford has more women (548 M, 641 W); this is not, in itself, a major disparity, but it becomes rather more striking when you consider that there are some 1,300 additional women nearby at Bryn Mawr.</p>
<p>Thank you to everyone that responded, this was extremely helpful for me.</p>
<p>From what I’ve heard and read about both schools, Williams might be a great fit. The “athletic culture” is definitely something that I would enjoy and, of course, the great education. Haverford’s Honor Code seems ingrained in the environment, but I don’t know whether this is good or bad. BUT, Williams’s secluded nature may also be a turn off. I gravitate more toward the suburban environment at Haverford.</p>
<p>I probably won’t have a great idea of either school until I visit, but both pass the eye test on paper.</p>