Need LAC suggestions for future "Nate Silver" kid... :-)

Parents Forum
41

My D had similar stats and lists of things she wanted in a school. She’d taken up to Calc BC + 2 years of stats in HS. She is currently a math + arts major at St Olaf. She is heavily involved in theater both student-run and department plus student music groups. She loves how musical the student body is. Next year she’ll be doing their Numbers Theory winter interim class in Budapest (this is a St Olaf only winter interim class), and possibly the Budapest semester away junior year (organized by St Olaf but anyone can apply). Being able to do study abroad in her major (math) was an important aspect for her.

St Olaf is ELCA Lutheran, this is a LGBTQ-welcoming denomination:
http://www.hrc.org/resources/stances-of-faiths-on-lgbt-issues-evangelical-lutheran-church-in-america
On top of that the student Lutheran congregation is a ReconcilingWorks congregation, which works for full inclusion of LGBTQ in all aspects of church life including ministry:
https://www.reconcilingworks.org/
The school has an active LGBTQ organization:
https://www.stolaf.edu/orgs/list/index.cfm?fuseaction=orginfo&OrgID=193&currentaction=listallorgs
They have a section on their website for future students and encourage contact with questions:
https://stolafglow.■■■■■■■■■■■■■/future-students/

42

Whitman might be worth considering. Small LAC in Washington State with 4 season weather. It’s located in Walla Walla, a small town in eastern Washington, and has a reputation for having friendly but hardworking students.

43

+1 to Lawrence University as a safety.

“Even though he’s very strong in math and I worry he may run out of classes in small LACs”
There are plenty of LACs where he’ll have plenty of options - not all but enough to build a good list with a range of selectivity. There have been other threads with LACs and Math majors where you could find some good discussion.

44

Could programs like Northwestern’s MMSS (mathematical methods in the social sciences) cause him to reconsider his aversion to larger schools?
http://www.mmss.northwestern.edu/undergraduate/

45

One of the luxuries of being a slightly larger LAC is that the college can offer graduate courses in a select number of departments. With math, it’s important that there be something in reserve should advanced kids burn through the regularly offered courses:
http://www.wesleyan.edu/mathcs/graduate/

I would call Wesleyan a rural campus on an urban doorstep. Lots of trees and generous greenswards, but, traffic on surrounding streets can be heavy during the day.

Friendliness of the students? That’s a tough one for an older alum to judge. YMMV. Definitely worth visiting.

46

Based on my D1s experience, at one of the larger LACs, the concern is well founded.
it is not so much running out of courses in absolute, but availability of the most relevant advanced level courses of actual interest, at the time that the student can take them.

Many such courses, if offered, will be offered only every other year, or only if a particular visiting professor with that interest happens to be there at that point. Or the one prof with that interest isn’t on sabbatical elsewhere. If offered they will be offered in only a single section, which may well conflict with something else he wants to take- that will also be offered in a single section, every other year. This is not hypothetical, it happened to my D1. Yes she could take other courses in the general subject to complete a major, but not the ones she wanted to take, at that point. This is more likely to happen when one skips out of the entry level courses due to being advanced in the subject, as she did. Maybe OPs son might, as well, don’t know.

And specific subareas of interest may not be offered at all. For example I hypothesized before that someone with OP sons interest (which were very close to my D1s) may well develop an interest in Positive Political Theory. Suggest Google that with each college considered and see what shows up.

Again do NOT just look at course catalog, which may list everything anybody there ever thought about, look at Registrar’s list of courses that were actually given.

47

My D is at Lawrence and I think it fits the atmosphere of the kind of school your S wants. Very friendly and accepting students, collaborative rather than competitive vibe. They have a music conservatory that is very open to non major students. Lots of opportunities for independent study one on one with a professor. That being said while the college itself and students are very accepting, the president of the college is openly gay, I’m not sure the surrounding area is super LGBTQ accepting. It pains me to say that because I am a big fan of the school but I think it is a reflection of the culture in many smaller midwestern towns and I think some of that has been more evident since this past election. Oberlin I think is an exception to that where despite being small and rural the town seems progressive.
So I’m wondering if your S is really adamant about being in a small town if he would ultimately find a better fit in the NE, PNW or maybe Colorado where the surrounding populations in these rural areas might be more progressive.
Colorado College seems like a good suggestion.
One other thought, many students change their minds after going through the process and touring some different schools so what about a couple of parent picks? I was thinking UC Boulder or UM Ann Arbor where I think he might really like the towns. Big schools but definitely not urban and the towns themselves are progressive. UM being such a strong state school and despite its reputation for being pretty liberal has a lot of more conservative students because it is such an academically strong state school so he would be exposed to a variety of students and still be able to find his tribe. It’s big rah rah sports but easy enough to avoid that if that’s not your thing. Boulder is gorgeous!
Haverford seems like a great suggestion and I would think it would be worth looking at NWU- not an LAC but not as big as some of the big state schools. Strong academically and not urban. Also what about Bard in NY?

48

Wow, thanks a lot EVERYONE for all the suggestions and comments, this is great information that I will share with my son tonight, there’s lot to consider.

This is a great program, it is just perfect for what he wants to do, I am sure he would love it! Too bad it's in an urban big school, but hopefully my son will be more flexible once he sees the variety of programs offered by universities compared to small LACs. I think I will plan some universities visits as well so he can properly make a decision.

@craspedia Thanks for all your comments, that was very helpful.

@arwarw I didn’t know about Lawrence, it sounds lovely. I will make sure to check this one too, thanks!

@liska21 Thank you so much for your comments about St Olaf, my son was very impressed with this school during his research and I’m happy to hear it’s LGBT-welcoming. It’s his favorite for now, so we’ll be visiting for sure very soon.

49

I read your original post with great interest, as my daughter (same age) has very similar attributes she is looking for in a college. She has toured Haverford and Swarthmore and really liked Haverford but found Swarthmore too “intense,” which is ironic given that a large majority of the information session seemed to be dedicated to dispelling the notion that Swarthmore is intense :wink: (She walked out and said, “they are bizarrely competitive about how uncompetitive they are”). That being said, I have a friend whose son is really nice, intellectual and gay and a freshmen there and is loving it.

She also really liked Vassar, and I was surprised that she liked Amherst. She did not like Williams (intensity? I don’t know…). Unfortunately she found my alma mater (Brown) too big (!) and too urban.

She also toured Carleton and Macalester a couple of years ago with her older sister and did NOT like Carleton, but for seemingly ridiculous reasons (annoying tour guide and overemphasis on frisbees). I have not swayed her on this, and there are too many colleges out there to spend more time trying to convince her to give it another try, but Carleton seemed like a good fit to me. She did like Macalester, and we are revisiting.

I thought Hamilton sounded great on paper, but she read in some guide about alcohol being a problem there (she doesn’t party), and seemed unable to accept that it will be a problem at most LACs she is looking at. I think of the Maine colleges Bates sounds the best for her, but also want her to consider Bowdoin. I am also trying to get her to visit Wesleyan.

In the midwest the ones we will visit are Grinnell, Oberlin, Kenyon and possibly Case Western.

We considered U Chicago (really seemed like “her people” would be there), and Reed, but decided after speaking with others that they were likely too much of the competitive and intense culture she doesn’t want (and Chicago is urban). She wants really smart kids who are intellectual, but collaborative and nice, with little to no Greek presence. And small classes (sound familiar)?

Just throwing all my thoughts out there because our children sound like they are looking for something fairly similar (my daughter enjoys science more than math though, although has a strong interest in statistics).

50

We did not know about that mmss program when D1 was applying to colleges, otherwise she might well have applied there. Like your son she was focused almost exclusively on LACs, but with hindsight that was a mistake for her. She is now in grad school at a huge university and loves it there.

FWIW, Northwestern is suburban, not urban.

51

Colby has a reputation of being pretty gay friendly, for its “type” of school (NE preppy/outdoorsy). I’d look at Vassar too, and Brown even though it’s a bigger school. Agree too with Macalester and Carleton.

52

Hamilton and Colorado College worth considering. Safety - Skidmore

53

Oh dear, didn’t read all the responses, but this sounds like Grinnell or Haverford type student to me. No greek life, earnest, intelligent but not competitive with each other student bodies.

Safeties (with merit) might include Lawrence University in Appleton, WI, which has a music conservatory but all ensembles are open to non-Con students and has greek life which it describes as “non-traditional.” Another match with merit would be Denison outside Columbus, Ohio, which has a Data Analytics major, music program takes advantage of faculty who are professional musicians in Columbus, and they have broken ground on a $30+ million new performing arts (music and theater) facility. Denison student body is blended – there are many social activistis, including LGBTQ, as well as students across all political spectrums, and greek life is less than 25% for males and non-residential.

54

Middlebury as a match, U Vermont as a an uber safety but with snow, mountains, super friendly students- it is bigger than he wants but Burlington Vermont is nobody’s idea of a bustling urban center!

Agree on Brown.

Another safety-- American? Goucher? Both have a rep in my neck of the woods for being especially LGBTQ friendly.

55

pomona pomona POMONA! Great great school and checks most of your boxes. LA is actually pretty mild weather and at night can hover in the 50s and 60s for most of the day.

Also note: Grinnell is in its own little town and a student told me “If you’re a republican, this probably isn’t the best schools for you. Grinnell is VERY liberal”

56

My S19 is also very mathy and will finish Calc BC junior year and then Lin Algebra + something else senior year. For him, I’m trying to steer him more towards a larger university, since he’s less likely to double-major and is a year farther along in math than his sister. Of course, I may fail in this “steering”, but at least he’s keeping an open mind for now. His sister was pretty fixated on LAC, snow 3 months of the year, musical, math, lots of study abroad. That quickly narrowed the list.

When I think of universities well-known for math, cold climate, rural setting, beautiful nature, known for being esp LGBTQ-friendly, I think of Cornell. That fails on size & greek life, but might be worth a visit if you are in the area. The campus is something to see if nothing else.

57

Ignoring the limited-greek for a moment… Dartmouth has a major in Mathematical Data Science. It seems to hit most of the other requirements.

58

@agatha1939

We just finished up our college search for D17, who is straight but a very committed LGBTQ+ advocate. She gravitated towards LACs and small universities in the Midwest. Some of what I will say is based on personal experience, some based on what I’ve picked up here. I can’t speak to the math departments because that wasn’t a priority for my D.

St. Olaf - a lovely school and your son’s stats would put him in the running for the Buntrock merit scholarship and possibly a music scholarship. Its Lutheran denomination is the more liberal one - supports gay marriage, ordination of gay clergy, etc. We know somebody who went there who is an atheist and she said it was very inclusive socially and politically and not heavy handed WRT religion. The math and music there checks out. Merit aid was very generous - about half of COA.

Oberlin - This was the school that first came to mind when I began reading your post. I would encourage your son to keep an open mind about the politics - I think the media loves to pounce on Oberlin and blow things out of proportion. Have him spend some time with the Oberlin Student Blogs - a wide range of kids are represented there. Their academic and extracurricular interests may differ but they seem universally kind, intellectually curious, and open-minded. I can’t speak to the math dept but I know Oberlin is strong in the sciences, CS, and neuroscience. It is a truly accepting, live-and-let-live, community and gender identity /sexual preference is a complete non-issue as far as I can tell. Regular merit scholarships go up to 25K; I hear there is a named math/science scholarship (Stern?) that goes up to 30K. Kids are intellectually curious but more collaborative than competitive. My D visited twice and will be attending in the fall. I would try to have him visit before ruling it out if the math department meets his needs.

Macalester - low key urban with an upscale residential neighborhood on one side of campus that stretches to the Mississippi River - about a 25-30 minute walk away with nice biking and walking trails. Very inclusive campus. No less left-leaning than Oberlin, IMO. Strong IR and study abroad programs that emphasize the developing world.

She also applied to College of Wooster and Dickinson and they didn’t quite meet her “life of the mind” threshold.

Wesleyan - lots of cross admits with Oberlin. Equally left-leaning if not more so. Minimal distribution requirements and you can design your own major if you want. Didn’t click with D, didn’t apply. Very gay friendly.

Vassar - this D loved but the financials didn’t work out for us, so she didn’t apply. Student guide was very down to earth and smart without being pretentious about it. Gorgeous campus, stunning library and quality art museum. Gay friendly. Your son would get an admissions boost because fewer males apply and attend. Gender neutral bathrooms.

Finally, perhaps more urban that his ideal but a good place for math and music is Case Western Reserve University. About 5-6K undergrads, nerdy collaborative vibe, lots of culture nearby. Yes it’s in Cleveland but in a neighborhood with nearby museums, parks, and a botanical garden, and Lake Erie is nearby. There’s a cool public access Maker space if he’s into that. Case students can take classes at Cleveland Institute of Music. Good merit aid (show interest and apply non-binding EA for best chances). Case does mandatory micro-aggression training as part of its freshman orientation, if that matters. D found it more diverse than the LACs she visited, both in terms of socioeconomic class and race (high % of Asians and visible presence of black and Hispanic students).

The following is not based on direct personal experience:

You also might want to check out schools in the Pacific Northwest, if he wants to avoid hot weather. University of Puget Sound, Lewis & Clark, Willamette, and Whitman come to mind. Probably in the safety zone for your child - he’d stand a good chance of merit scholarships at any of them.

For east coast, maybe try Bard or Skidmore or possibly Sarah Lawrence. I think Skidmore has merit scholarships for music and STEM. Sarah Lawrence has merit money and is eager to attract more male students.

For midwest - Grinnell and possibly Beloit. Also Ohio University in Athens has an Honors Program that is tutorial based. It’s a bigger school and definitely has sports and Greek life. But it might be worth a look.

I suspect that Swarthmore or Reed might be more intense than your kid is seeking. Ditto for Chicago.

Finally - I would take the size of school into account. Acceptance and inclusion is one thing. The size of the dating pool is another. Let’s assume 10% of the student population is gay and half of them are male. If the school has 1200 kids, you’re talking a total dating pool of around 60. If you’re in an urban area with other schools like the Twin Cities or Cleveland or Boston, that opens things up a bit. If you’re in a small rural town, not so much.

Among LACs, St Olaf and Oberlin are larger than the norm, with about 3,000 students each.

59

However, SLC academic offerings may be quite limited outside of arts, literature, writing, history, and psychology.
https://www.sarahlawrence.edu/undergraduate/disciplines/
For example, it has only 1-2 courses that cover material that would be in upper level math courses elsewhere, and has no upper level calculus-based statistics at all.

60

Re#57, I have it on good, relatively recent authority that, sadly, the reports about slant of student body and courses there is not totally “blown out of proportion”. OP’s son’s concerns in this regard are well founded. Though in many other respects there is seemingly an ideal fit. Save for the course limitations issue I brought up previously. At that time a few years ago anyway, it did not have particularly strong offerings in OPs son’s specific areas of likely interest. Though no worse than most LACs probably.