Agree with that, except that question 1) will invariably be answered with a qualifier about no guarantees, etc. At that point, IMO, you have to ask one more question that I don’t see listed here: will my athlete receive the highest level of support that you have to give to any athlete in the process. I think a parent is better off knowing whether your kid is a slot or a tip, even given your point about kids with stellar academic creds. If my kid has those creds and the coach feels comfortable using a tip rather than a slot, then I know I’m at the mercy of the coach’s judgment about the process and the odds. If my kid has creds that generate a positive pre-read and the coach has slotted my athlete, then I know he/she has done all they can. Still seems like a meaningful difference to me.
What term did the coaches use when making their offers?
Also, even though it was from 3-differnt schools, did the offer sound the same from the different coaches and schools?
My D was offered a spot at her top choice, a NESCAC, last summer. After the offer we insisted (and coach encouraged) we get on the phone with D for some final questions before D officially accepted. We knew we needed to hear certain and specific things from the coach before we would agree to her committing and applying ED1, including:
1-Was coach giving her FULL support to D?
2-Confirming where D was on her list (she had already told D she was her top recruit, but we wanted to hear ourselves that she was 1 or 2 on her list)
3-Had any recruit with this same level of support who had applied ED1 NOT been admitted?
The coach never stated whether D was a slot or a tip (likely for all the reasons @gointhruaphase mentions) but stated she had the coach’s FULL support, she was her top recruit, and that she had NEVER had a recruit not been admitted with this level of support. She then added, “Admissions is excellent about keeping their word.”
So, long story short, these are extremely important discussions that parents need to be a part of, to hear these specific things, and to be okay with their child putting all their eggs in that particular school’s basket…
[quote=“Crosbylane, post:383, topic:2083286”]
So, long story short, those are extremely important discussions that parents need to be a part of to hear these specific things and to be okay with their child putting all their eggs in that particular school’s basket…
Agree completely!
Or at least know if you would be applying without support. Still ok for some to do so if the school checks all the other important boxes and you understand what the chances are when applying and that they may not get admitted.
Absolutely!
For us, we knew D is a strong student with rigor and and a target ACT score, but there would likely be students with higher grades, even more rigor, and with test scores surpassing the school’s/coach’s target score, applying to this highly selective school, so we knew she needed to be an impact player high on the coach’s list, with full support. We (personally) also would not have allowed her to commit/apply ED1 to a school that did not check every box academically, athletically, socially, and financially.
As the parent, we weren’t part of the conversation where the offer was made. Since at that point my son’s top choice was a non-NESCAC school, we didn’t drill down into the specifics because we weren’t sure he would be accepting those offers.
And actually we did not have a conversation with the Washington and Lee coach either. However, my son attended a boarding school, and his college counselor called the school and verified that my son passed the preread and that my son was the “coach’s top recruit for that position”. I remember the phrase because it’s not really used in soccer recruiting.
I was confident because if the school blew my son off I knew, and they knew, there would be repercussions with the boarding school.
Our child’s day school’s college counselor also made the call - not for NESCAC but Ivy. I know it is a luxury to have that available through the high school. We never spoke to the coach or met until a competition during freshman year of college. I know our school college counselor calls NESCAC’s too (after offer has been made to student) to confirm and all is clear - can think of this happening at Williams and Middlebury for athletes we know from high school.
This seems absolutely clear when the coach says full support & “my top 1-2 recruit”. Does it start becoming edgy if the coach says my #3 recruit, or my #4 recruit… in which case the natural follow up question may be “exactly how many slots do you have”, and/or “how many athletes in similar position in the past have gotten recruited/admitted”?
In hindsight, I am not so sure about that. I think a fully supported “#1 or#2” athlete may only get “coded/tip” designation if the coach is confident that the recruit’s academics and other factors will provide a greater than 90% chance of admissions. I think the only clear answer is if the coach unambiguously says the recruit has an “academic factor/slot”.
For my DS23, last fall it came down to a NESCAC and a D3 that offered him a likely letter. The NESCAC coach never used the term “slot”, or said “top 1-2”. It was much more vague, like “I can usually get the guys in that I want”. Academically, DS would have been in the top 25% of applicants for the NESCAC, so maybe he felt DS would get in without a slot. We were leaning towards the other D3 anyway, and the lack of firm support from the NESCAC (compared with the likely letter we eventually received) sealed the deal.
I have heard coaches will sometimes put their support behind the B band athlete, hoping that the A band one will get in with a tip.
@bucketDad can you share the sport?
Wrestling. Since last fall, I’ve learned of at least one commit to the NESCAC who would have definitely been ahead of DS23. So in retrospect, it’s easier to see where the NESCAC coach was coming from. He was careful not to overpromise.
We’re in the learning/doing it phase of recruiting (HS 2024), not looking at it in the rear-view mirror. This discussion brings up a point of confusion for me. In threads on CC I have gotten the impression that the “power” of tips and slots (whether that terminology is used or not is immaterial) is the same, and that the terms/concepts really are just an internal designation regarding the level of academic credentials of the athlete. So, as I understand it, all a student needs to confirm is that (a) they are fully supported, (b) what fully supported has meant in terms of admissions success in prior years. I have understood that it is not “worse” to be getting only a tip vs a slot because they have an equal amount of coach support and equal power (so to speak) with the AO.
But this conversation seems to suggest otherwise. Can someone please provide clarity? TIA!
Start with reading the link to Amherst’s report linked in post 365 above. I do think there is a real difference between a slotted/academic factor recruit and a tipped/coded recruit, especially as you go down the continuum of academic/non athletic related strength of the recruit.
It is in the coach’s interest to maximize the athletic quality of their recruited class (they want to win). They probably have a good sense of whether or not a tip is sufficient to get a recruit through admissions and when a slot will be required. However, sometimes they may miscalculate because they don’t know the strength of the applying class or the number of acceptances that the AO will extend for that year, and an athlete who thought they were fully supported gets deferred or denied.
What I picked up from the many discussions I have read through is the a slot it a guaranteed spot that the coach gets from admissions - they can push a number of athletes through, namely two if posts are correct (more for football), as long as they meet minimum academic requirements necessary to pass a pre-read.
A tip appears to be more of a thumb on the scale. How heavy a thumb is hard to gage.
Maybe someone with more insight can clarify.
there seems to be agreement that outside of football, soccer etc, and with full coach support/positive pre-read, the highest to lowest probabilities would rank in order
Slot with LL (where LL is available) > Slot #1 > Slot #2 >> Slot #3 >>> Slot #4 > Tip #1 > Tip #2…
and athletes should ask the coaches point blank where they stand on the recruit list, the coach’s assessed odds of acceptance, and the historic probability of acceptance of an athlete with similar ranking
@Nivo, the NESCAC recruiting process is more nuanced, which is why coaches usually don’t talk to recruits about slots vs. tips. I have had coaches mention them, but it was by far from the norm. One NESCAC coach explained to me that they planned to use a slot on their no. 1 recruit who had high academic stats. The coach was told by admissions not to use the slot on no. 1, but to use it on the next recruit who had lower academics.
Look, there are no guarantees, nor should there be. Athletes get many admissions advantages over the unhooked applicant, but a guarantee is not one of them. It is, however, a significant increase in the chances for admission, for which all athletic recruits should be very appreciative.
A slot is not a “lock” for a person, rather it is essentially a lock for the team. The recruit still needs to pass muster with admissions. Tips still equal full support, and I would venture to say are just as secure as the slots, except at the margins. So how does it look if you are no. 6 on a list of 5? Who knows. It likely depends on a multitude of other factors. Maybe the coach only needed 4 recruits the prior year. Maybe the school is desperate for singers. You might still end up with full coach support and be a highly likely admit.
I will say this about the NESCACs. Do not jump to conclude that the process is fishy or coaches are deceitful. I was told by coaches in other D3 leagues that NESCAC recruiting provides more certainty than their system. I suspect that all D3 recruiting keeps parents (if not the recruits) on pins and needles until they receive the “fat” email. But honestly, isn’t that the way it should be. Athletes should take take their advantages for granted.
The slots and tips both equaling full coaches support in the NESCAC confuse me a bit. It may be that the sports that only get a couple of slots get a few tips as well, to tip the scales a bit, but my thinking was that a tip would not be as much help as the official slotted supported recruit.
For example, for football, I believe the NESCAC has a rule of 14 slots per team, split over A, B and C academic bands. My understanding, as explained by coaches as well, the coach/team gets up to 14 slotted supported recruits that they can put their support behind with admissions, the final decision to admit of course is still with admissions.
And then based on the above, the coaches would then get tips, and if “tips still equal full support, and I would venture to say are just as secure as the slots”, so these supported tips would be in addition to the 14 slots?
So, if advising an athlete/family, if the student has been told they are getting a “fully supported spot” and are comfortable with the historical data re: how many folks with that level of coach support have not been admitted in the past, is there still a need to ask about (1) position on the list, and/or (2) slot vs tip?
My son went through this last year, and while nothing was ever guaranteed until the acceptance arrived, his process was rather straight forward with the NESCAC schools.
Once the pre read was complete and the admissions office gave their “green light”, coach came back and offered “full support” if he applied ED1, but there was no mention of a slot or tip etc., and he did not ask. This school was at the top of his list and academically he was a strong match, and the coach was great about communicating and not guaranteeing anything, but stayed in touch throughout the fall. There were definitely more first year players on the team than slots available, so while he will never know what level support he was given by the coach he felt confident enough about the coach’s interest that he took the statement of “full support” at any level, as enough to apply.
Nothing was guaranteed, but son felt enough assurance from the coach that things would work out in admissions and there was definitely a sense of relief, and joy, once the acceptance letter came.