What you describe above is my understanding and experience as well. And when or if the coach offered full support, it was for one of their supported slots, of which they only had so many, at least that was my understanding for football.
The band level was also explained though my sense is that they do not necessarily inform the recruit if they are an A, B or C, and try to keep that part internal.
There are often more 1st year players on teams than there are coach supported recruits or slots.
That is true at the Ivies as well. Some students/recruits may have been on the radar but do not receive the coach support and apply on their own, and are welcome additions on the team if they get admitted.
I would say if student has been told explicitly they are getting a âfully supported spotâ at the time of the offer, and if they have asked how many athletes in the past with that SAME level of support have not been admitted ED1 (assuming the agreement is for athlete to apply ED1) thenâŠ
If the athlete is still unsure about where they are on coachâs list, it would be wise to ask how many the coach plans on taking for their recruiting class and then follow up their answer with, where am I on that list?
We knew there were no 100% guarantees but for our own sanity (and Dâs) we wanted to feel as comfortable and certain as possible.
*edited to add, we never heard words slot or tip and we did not ask.
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Would tend to agree with @Crosbylane. There are indeed many successful and happy past stories and experiences, where an athlete received full support, didnât mind if it was slot/tip, didnât mind where his/her rank was on the coachâs list, and happily got admitted to his/her dream school team. By the same token, itâs also a fair question to ask a coach, and neither insulting nor overbearing, to disclose the rank, the slot vs tip, and the historical likelihood in a similar situation.
maybe a rare, but certainly not exceptional situation would be an athlete simultaneously sought by 2 or more schools. if the athleteâs favorite school coach says you have full support without disclosing rank/slot/tip, and the other coaches clearly state âyou have my full support for a slot, are #1-2 on my recruiting list after passing pre-readâ, one could understand why many candidates would opt for the coaches making an offer thatâs more unequivocal. At that stage, the athlete can ask the first coach for more certainty, given the candidate has to decide between several different offers of full support. That certainly would be a valid question when all coaches are seeking ED1, and the athlete only has one ED1 pick in his pocket.
@Recruitparent, we know that slots and tips exist because the Amherst Report (which is an attempt to provide clarity on how athletes are admitted) expressly refers to them (although calling them athletic factor or coded athletes). All that a slot does is allows the school to dip below the schoolâs usual academic standards to admit a handful of athletes. Why would you ever advertise that to parents and recruits (i.e., you arenât good enough for us academically, so we have to dip below our standards)? It is for that reason that that many parents donât hear about it from coaches. Instead, you hear of academic bands (A, B, and C bands), and maybe where the recruit falls into those bands. I have had conversations with three NESCAC coaches who acknowledged the slot system. I have had plenty more with NESCAC coaches where they were not mentioned.
Football has 14 slots, not spread out over tips and slots, they are slots. This point is made clear in the Amherst Report, which notes that athletic factor recruits [slots] ânumbers are regulated by NESCAC rules according to a formula based on the number of teams that the college sponsors. That number for Amherst is 67 per year with 14 of the slots designated for football. . âŠâ Then the report designates âcoded athletesâ [tips] who âare high achieving students . . . [and who] are excellent athletes . . . These students are admitted at a much higher rate than the general admission rate for [similarly situated applicants]. . .â There is no limit on the number of tips that can be admitted because academically they are indistinguishable from the non-athletic student body.
So, those 14 football recruits are slotted, and more can be added by way of tips. According to the report, there are 67 total slots and an additional 60-90 tips admitted per year.
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I suspect itâs hard for coaches to say where you are on the list because this will change.
If they say they are supporting you, you could be the lowest on the supported totem pole, but if two above you decide to head elsewhere, well, you may now be nearer the top. But if youâre going to head elsewhere if you arenât #1 or #2, you can see why a coach might not want to say more than âyou have my full supportâ.
I understand whatâs on the line for athletes, but you need to understand that the coaches are also dealing with a vety dynamic siruation as most of their top picks have other top pick colleges as well.
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Although things start to become less uncertain for coaches and recruits as the top recruits begin to confirm whether or not they will âcommitâ to a school by agreeing to ED there. I think the vast majority of coaches will only tell a recruit that they will be supported provided they ED if they have enough slots/tips. Whether or not it is a slot or a tip may move around as the recruiting class settles out. Several coaches at OVâs for S did tell him that they would appreciate an answer by X date so that they could move down their list if he declined.
Precisely, @BKSquared ! Supprted is supported. The fixation with âwhere am I on the list?â Is unnecessary it you have support.
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End of the day, some of it is going to come down to the familyâs personal comfort level and trust, if you have otherwise done your due diligence. There are nuances to family/athleteâs situation. D is lucky in that her top choice (NESCAC) told her she was the coachâs top recruit and if she passed pre-read sheâd get offer on 7/1, but second choice (another NESCAC) was a little more vague, and wouldnât specifically tell her when she would hear on pre-read/offer other than âall offers will be given before 7/15â despite this coach heavily recruiting her. The first one was her top choice and it all worked out so as soon she got the offer, she let the second coach know. Might the second one have worked out? Maybe! We also, in our gut, trusted the first coach more and felt she was more genuine and forthcoming.
Not everything (even if we would like it to be) is neat and tidy and some element of gut and trust does come into it; you just have to go into it extremely aware and armed with as much info. as possible.
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Thanks, everyone for your thoughts. We donât care one tiny bit where our athlete (non-ball sport) ranks on the list just for rankingâs sake. We only care if it is part of the due diligence we need to do as a part of the recruiting process. it sounds as though knowing whether youâre tip vs slot or where on the list is generally immaterial; once youâve heard that youâre getting a fully supported spot in exchange for ED1 (and you understand what that assurance from that coach has historically meant w/ admissions success), thatâs as much assurance as you can get and itâs just a matter trust from that point forward.
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Good luck! I found it helpful to gather every scrap of info. I could (I dug deep on here), and then during each step (coachâs asking for pre-read, results from pre-read, asking about when to expect an offer, getting an offer, etc.) to share details (withholding private info. as needed) here for feedback and guidance moving forward to the next step. I learned so much as we moved through the process with D and hopefully it also helped others reading the info.
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Thanks! I remember you coming back to this forum at each stage and how much others with more experience helped you understand/parse the language. I will absolutely be doing the same if/when we hit that point. For now, just keeping my fingers crossed that the spring season goes really well and that the interest many D3s have shown so far remains. (the waiting until June to really kick this process into gear is killing me a little bit).
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@gointhruaphase
Yes, understood. I think we are in agreement, and this is essentially what I was trying to say. If the coach is giving full support, I assume that is a slot. Similar to a Likely Letter at an Ivy.
One further perspective from my side, not all the slots are dipping below the schoolâs usual academic standards to admit a recruit. Often the recruit has the merits to get in on their own though if it is a top athletic recruit, and your talking about a top NESCAC like a Williams that rejects even top academic candidates, the coach may offer and use a slot to lock up the recruit rather than take a chance that they go in unprotected thru admissions so to speak. At least that is common in the Ivyâs. Even the best of the best academic students get Ivy LL to assure that they do apply and get in if they are also a top recruit.
It is the âtipsâ that I wonder about how much pull they have. For example, if There is no limit on the number of tips that can be admitted because academically they are indistinguishable from the non-athletic student body. Is there also no limit on the # of tips that a coach can submit on top of the slots, as long as they are indistinguishable from the non-athletic body?
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I donât believe that a slot is like a likely letter. My understanding is that a likely letter comes from admissions based on a coach reference after an application has been submitted. A positive preread result in the NESCACs is most akin to a likely letter, although premeds are communicated before the application is submittedâŠ
Most folks who are slots donât even know they are slots. Most all slots do dip below the academic standards because that is the purpose of a slot. As mentioned, I talked to one coach who planned to use the slot on the no. 1 recruit, only to be told by admissions that the no. 1 had good enough academics to be admitted as a tip. The slot was used on the no. 3 recruit. It is true that different NESCAC schools have different standards for slots. A slot at Williams could well be a tip at Conn College. Slots are full support.
Tips do not fall below the academic standards. Tips also are full support.
If an applicant has not had a preread, no OV, but the coach sends a letter to admissions saying âwe could use this kid,â that is soft support. The kid is basically trying to get in on his/her own, with a mention from the coach.
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It is the âtipsâ that I wonder about how much pull they have. For example, if There is no limit on the number of tips that can be admitted because academically they are indistinguishable from the non-athletic student body. Is there also no limit on the # of tips that a coach can submit on top of the slots, as long as they are indistinguishable from the non-athletic body?
There is a limit. There is a tension between admissions and coaches in terms of who is creating the class. Coaches, by definition, are prioritizing athletics. Admissions have other priorities. Itâs assumed that all successful applicants meet academic standards.
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would it be fair to compare as follows:
- strongest: Ivy LL/Coach Full Coach support (without which the applicant couldnât get an LL), ED
- strong: NESCAC Accepted Pre-read and Full Coach Support, ED
- May assist: Tip/Coach support. Depending on the school and the situation that year, but nothing is guaranteed
- Weakest: Walk-on, after the applicant had been admitted & has enrolled as a student
No, I donât think so.
Letâs take an athlete who commits in Oct after a positive pre-read who is a strong student (keeping in mind a pre-read means different things at different programs).
With full coach support and the coach indicating that every recruit with this level of support has been admitted in the past, the level of certainty is probably pretty similar between Ivies and most NESCAC schools. The difference is that Ivies can tell the recruit early that she will be admitted, in the form of a likely letter. But the recruit doesnât have that letter until committing and applying, so on the day of committing itâs not like the likely letter is in hand already to tip the scales.
Personally I have more experience with Ivy processes and I feel like there is more of a conference standard in place, so I have more confidence there. But I think Iâd have the same level of confidence if I talked to, say, a Williams coach, understood their process and track record with recruits, and trusted the coach.
My understanding of slots and tips comes from a discussion with a former NESCAC track coach (my kids were already in college at that point, this was just a casual chat on the backstretch during a meet). He was allocated a set number of slots and tips each year. He could trade with other sports. They had the same admissions force and part of the pre-read was admissions telling him who would need a slot for admissions and who was in with a tip. He never explained that to recruits. He just said Iâll support you and everyone I support gets in.
Part of the challenge with the language is that the word âtipâ gets thrown around a lot in other contexts and I think means something different. For example, Harvard coaches sometimes offer to write letters for unsupported recruits, then those recruits start calling that a tip, or a coach at a random D3 program says they can provide a tip for applicants, and now weâre all confused because the word means something different in all those contexts.
My advice is to talk to the coaches specifically about the process at their schools and donât assume the words mean the same things across schools. Except where there IS similar language and rules conference-wide, like with Ivy LLs. If you want to get into talk of slots and tips I guess thatâs fine but what you really care about is the practical difference it makes.
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I donât think an Ivy style likely letter is necessarily âstrongerâ than NESCAC-style full support with ED â it is just a different process.
I also donât think there is a significant difference between what is categorized as âstrongâ vs. âmay assistâ categories on your list at the D3 level. All recruits do pre-reads and â if supported by the coach as a recruit â are expected to apply ED so the coach knows that recruiting spot is filled. For families who have asked the right questions and listened to the words in the coachâs answer (and not what they want to hear, which can be a big âifâ), a positive pre-read, full support and ED are as close to a sure thing as you can get. Of course, there are programs where those same steps are not enough to count on, including MIT, Haverford etc. But most of the time, positive pre-read, coach support and ED, along with a coach statement along the lines of âin the past 5 years, all of my recruits with similar support and stats were admitted EDâ is something that allows a family to exhale. Of course, until the acceptance arrives, most of us have a hard time being 100% confident, but that process is pretty darn reliable.
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is there an important caveat and difference between Ivy and NESCAC, assuming that the athletes gets full coach support, passes the pre-read, and commits to apply to an Ivy ED.
In the case a complete surprise disaster where no LL letter is being issued by admissions in early October, the candidate can ask the coach/admission for clarification, and if they somehow confirm that no LL will be issued (there can be many reasons, like a coach change, or a coach suddenly trading up for an unexpected dream athlete, etc), then the applicant can still pull his ED application and decide to apply ED to another school where he has full coach support and passed pre-reads?
I believe that ship will have sailed at that point. The coach will likely have offered support to another athlete.
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To clarify, as I understand it, not all Ivy recruits get likely letters (and some non-athletes also receive them for different reasons).
But as @TonyGrace noted, if things fall apart in recruiting in late fall, there are not a lot of options to pivot to quickly. Most competitive programs will have already locked up their recruiting through ED. There may be some programs which still have spots and offer ED2. Thatâs why families who have been through this process recommend being respectful with coaches and schools which a student declined as a recruit.
My best advice is do your diligence on the sport, coach, program and school, listen to the advice here â and read the pinned advice threads â learn to ask specific questions and listen to the answers carefully. Until the acceptance decision comes through, we all had to trust our process and our judgment.
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