There are musicians who can get a bit of a ‘tip’ in admissions in non-conservatory settings. Schools including lacs who have strong orchestra programs need talented musicians and they do seek them out. Kids submit supplements or reach out directly, s note gets passed on to admissions… I have seen this happen at Ivy’s and Lacs. At schools with good orchestras it doesn’t coincidentally happen that strong musicians are admitted.
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OK, but do the musician kids have knowledge of this ahead of admissions decisions? Does one violinist get told that they have been selected and if they apply ED they are basically in? Or does the school just try to get a group of outstanding violinists to apply?
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I get it and honestly I am not in a position to disagree with you definitively.
Solely from the outside perspective it seems like sports recruiting is a bigger deal than probably all of those other hooks put together. They are looking to fill many slots of people doing the same thing in one activity. And they are going to do it, without fail, and there are people there whose job it is to make sure it happens. Whereas in a given cycle the AO may live without finding the unicorn Oboist. It’s a pretty big hook. Yeah, for sure, football is a bigger hook than squash.
I also agree with your point about the general bias people have for other hooks while often finding the athletic hook offensive. It is frickin’ hard to become very good at a sport and it takes years and dedication.
Ok I have a question about slot verses tip. Every time I start reading these types of threads, I start wondering if S got a tip without being told. His communication with the Bowdoin coach was short. He filled out the recruitment form online and wrote the coach an email showing interest and including his grades and test scores. He received exactly one (enthusiastic) email back saying something like they’d love to have him if he is admitted. He is the high GPA, high SAT kind of kid with other decently impressive ECs on top of running. Fast enough to fit on the team but not recruitable at NESCACs (but was recruited by a few schools including Kenyon). Got in RD but there has never been any talk from the coaches that they had anything to do with it. For those of you in the know, Is that how tips work?
I think your S got in without a tip. Even for a tip, the usual quid quo pro is for the athlete to apply ED. The coaches also make clear that they are affirmatively supporting the athlete. The pre-read process is also more formal than an athlete self-reporting scores and grades. My kids all submitted that info to every coach they reached out to. For the official pre-reads, the coaches asked for the same thing again but wanted documentation (copy of school stamped transcript, a pdf of the test score report, and a senior schedule). I suspect there are some variations with each school/coach, but “they’d love to have him if he is admitted” line almost always means we are out of our quota of slots/tips but you’d probably make it as a walk on if you got in on your own.
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IME, there was a lot more contact with the coach who walked my dd through the admissions process as a recruit. They were in touch pretty frequently when ED applications were close to being due. They also had input as to if her senior schedule was “good enough,” and if she should apply TO or not.
Question for anyone with perspective on this. We are giving advice to our nephew 6 foot 6 and growing HS Junior Bball player. Recently we have had experiences with two local athletes one at Williams and one at W & L. In both cases these kids were solid students but more than likely not getting in without sports. One kid is really struggling academically and the other maybe not making the dean’s list but overall doing well.
We are seeing the same situation developing with our nephew pushing for him to get into academic reaches through sports vs. finding the right match academically and socially. Even at a match school, the time commitment to a sport makes academics extra challenging. Anyone who could offer specific experience or input with similar situations would be appreciated?
In our experience, dd was asked over the winter of her junior year to send her transcripts (unofficial) and any test scores to the high schools she was interested in. They got back to her and pretty much told her if her test scores needed to be better, and if her course load was strong enough to be considered as a competitive applicant for their school. These were high academic, D3 programs. She had initially reached out to them as a sophomore, they did not randomly reach out to her.
Thanks. In this case our nephew has already been contacted by close to a dozen schools. My question is should he use Bball to get into a reach school and possibly struggle by being over matched academically?
Does he know what he wants to major in? That can make a difference. A premed who may be able to get good enough grades to make it to med school at a directional school could crash and burn at Williams for example.
At my son’s school, some of the athletes are sociology majors, because that is the easiest one to complete. If all you are wanting is a degree from a prestigious organization, that works. And for many jobs honestly that’s fine, they see the degree and will train you from there. But if he wants something specific he needs to pick a school where he stands a decent chance of completing the major.
My son is doing something specific enough that with other info I have posted it outs him if I say exactly what. But I would call it middle of the road in difficulty. It definitely isn’t sociology, but it also definitely isn’t engineering or premed. He is getting by and should be able to graduate with a degree in his field, but my hunch is that he will be in the bottom 20% for GPA for kids in his major (just a guess, I haven’t seen anyone’s GPA but his). I don’t think he works as hard as he should on his classes, but I bet there are kids getting mostly A’s who don’t work much more than he does.
I think he has mixed feelings about that aspect. It is frustrating to know that his athletic peers, some of whom he keeps in contact with, are not working nearly as hard as he is and getting much better grades. OTOH, he will graduate with a pretty valuable degree. And he is surrounded by people who are ambitious, not just in their sport, but academically and in life. That peer group is worth a lot. He got an under the table offer to transfer this summer, but didn’t pursue it because he can’t envision himself leaving his group behind.
In your case, it seems like maybe something that is an academic stretch would be fine but maybe not to the absolute toughest school he could get in. I know everyone defines this differently, but maybe use it to bump up one or 2 tiers, but not to the very top. Just something to think about. I don’t think there is a right answer to this question.
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Your nephew does need to find his academic and social fit, for sure – and that fit can be found at a reach school or a safety school, and there is no way for any of us to say more than that.
Athletes usually do well academically at selective schools (they do have to pass Admissions, which does not want to admit a kid who will crash and burn).
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Thanks this is helpful. It gives me more info to to go back to them with. The idea of a reach but not too big of one.
We have told them to go visit as many schools as possible and find the ones that fit best for him. One part is the Dad was D1 scholarship athlete and I think went to a college that he was academically over qualified for because of the scholarship offer. So I think there will be a push to over reach.
The kid is pretty good and even has a little bit of D2 interest. I think the goal is Econ at a T20 or even T10 LAC which is certainly not a walk in the park for anyone. He is probably a match for T50 maybe so it’s a big jump. I don’t know whether it is crash and burn situation but more struggling in a situation where he would be over matched academically.
Why do you think the school would admit him if he academically can’t do the work? I don’t think they will. Even the best athlete will not be admitted if he can’t meet the academic requirements. He may not get all A’s and may really have to put in a lot of work, but isn’t doing the work the whole point of college?
Even Harvard admissions says that 90% of the applications they get are from students who are capable of doing the work, of contributing to the community but they just don’t have room for all 40,000 of them. The students who got into USC and Yale and Stanford through Singer and Varsity Blues didn’t flunk out of those schools.
High tide raises all boats. Being around others working hard at academics (and baseball) may bring out the best in your nephew.
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Good advice so far. I’d just add that a big factor is what the student athlete wants. If he wants an academically rigorous, sometimes challenging, environment and he’s the one veering toward those sorts of schools, then he’ll be fine. But if it’s the parents driving him to prestige schools then it can be a recipe for frustration. Econ is typically a popular and very doable major for athletes.
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I understand what you are saying and I realize that these elite schools are not football factories and have their standards. We have seen firsthand kids who are less qualified because they are outstanding athletes get into schools that their more qualified peers did not.
In my OP I talked about a kid who is struggling at a T20 LAC. We had three kids apply from our local high school apply to this school. The kid who got in is a very good LAX player and could have played at a higher level. The other two with measurably better stats did not. The LAX kid was not unqualified but was a lot less qualified than the vast majority of kids who get accepted. He’s not flunking but he’s barely getting by and is not having a great experience.
My DS 21 was recruited by some top 10 LACs and the equivalents outside NESCAC, as well as some good D1’s (but not the top ones). We told him repeatedly that he had to study a little bit harder to make the grade there (by study we meant actually do his homework). He didn’t really care that much, got a couple of bad grades and didn’t pass the pre-reads. he ended up applying to LACs ranked 30-100 and equivalent D1’s, got into all 9 places he applied to without coach help (we were shocked), and chose a middle ranked LAC where he is incredibly happy so far and getting an excellent education.
I think he knew at some level that he didn’t want to go school filled with students who were always anxious about school work and grades. For the right kid (our DS19, for example) the top rated LACs are a great fit, but not for all. The lesson we learned was to meet each kid where they are - find them a good fit socially first, there are lots of good academic schools. We were trying to force him into a box he didn’t want to be, and I think he is much happier having resisted it.
Most of the research shows that the school you go to has very little impact on your lifetime earnings. I hope your nephew can resist the temptation to “climb the rankings” to a place he may not be comfortable in.
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@homerdog Not sure if calling it a tip is the right vernaculars but I bet the coach gave admissions a list of kids applying RD that would be an asset to the team. My D not given a pre-read at Bowdoin because she wasn’t an elite enough athlete, but assistant coach was in touch towards the end of the RD process. It sounded like there was a ‘list’ Not sure if the list is ranked or if admissions just picks the strongest, but some of that list gets admitted.
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Checking into the econ departments would be smart. The requirements are going to vary from school to school. Also check to see what the athletes are majoring in. If a lot are in Econ (and they probably are), that’s a good sign that’s it’s doable.
If the kid is onboard, there is nothing wrong with a bit of a stretch. Like I said about my son, he is not getting great grades but also in no danger of the univeristy asking him to leave either. I don’t think he is working as hard as he should, but he is working a lot harder than he would at many of the lower ranked schools who were recruiting him. Those work habits he learned will probably pay dividends for the next 40 years. He is being forced to stretch himself, and that’s probably a good thing.
Doing official visits, or unofficial ones where he can spend time with potential teammates helps them figure out if it is the right place for them. The kids are usually pretty honest with each other. They tell the good, bad and ugly. Sometimes that is about the way they feel they fit in with the campus as a whole, or how difficult the classes are.
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@Chadt, I’d say anything can happen in recruiting. I know a kid who had a pre-read, was invited for OV, applied early and was deferred. We like to think that the recruiting process is predictable based on certain markers (like pre-reads, OVs, etc), but in reality it can be fluid.
Ask, ask, ask the coach. It is remarkable that pretty much all coaches ask parents at meetings if they have any questions. Parents, not wanting to take over, demur. CC posters can tell you of their experiences, but they may vary from yours. We simply don’t know how many other kids are in this coach’s line of sight, or whether an Ivy recruit will land in the coach’s lap. We don’t know how great your kid is, as in whether he is the no. 1 recruit for this coach.
The coach has said you have full support - which is better than soft support (a term given to some efforts (often minimal) by the coach to get admissions to take a second look). Have your kid ask where he is on the list and how many are being recruited. If he is no. 5 of 5, that tells you where you stand if any Ivy recruit enters the picture. Ask how many recruited kids with the same position on the list and the same academic stats were admitted and how many were denied admission. The past is not a guarantee of the future, but if the coach says “every single one,” then that is some comfort. Ask what admissions said about the pre-read. The NESCACs often use the traffic light analogy, so if the coach says admissions gave it the green light, that is as good as you are going to get. You may also want to ask about tryouts, just to see whether a recruited athlete could get cut the first year.
If you get positive answers to these questions, and your kid loves the school, apply early. It will feel good knowing early on where he is going, although you may feel left out when other kids are choosing (i.e., rejecting schools, which in this day and age has a nice feel) in April or May.
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Thanks for all the great input. It is new ground for me in dealing with a recruited athlete. His coach only has been at the varsity level for three years and doesn’t have a done of experience in dealing with colleges. We do however have a close friend who has been coaching for over 25 years and has lots of experience in dealing with this.
I will keep checking back in on this thread as we progress through the process. Our nephew is projected to reach 6-8 or more with three-point range So we also may be dealing with some D1 interest depending on the school and AAU spring season.